Zellaton and my ascent to Soulution

[XV-1]

Is Audioarts a dealer or distributor?

I hope all his customers get loan equipment while waiting for the equipment they ordered.

 

[Steve williams]

Allow me to try and help you with your confusion. Prospective owners 'pony up' based on a collection of information. One of those pieces of information is the release date or window.

I’m still confused because the last post I read was the proclamation that this amp was the next best thing to sliced bread yet no one has heard it yet you bought it based on a release date. Color me confused

 

[Steve williams]

Is Audioarts a dealer or distributor?

I hope all his customers get loan equipment while waiting for the equipment they ordered.

Asked and answered today

 

[pk_LA]

I’m still confused because the last post I read was the proclamation that this amp was the next best thing to sliced bread yet no one has heard it yet you bought it based on a release date. Color me confused

Please read the thread, Steve. Ship Date is ONE of a collection of data points in determining a purchase - not the ONLY one. Consider my point another way...and please try to see where I am coming from. Please. What if the amps are delayed eight months? Would that be too long? Two years? The point being that there is a degree of slippage that most everyone would find objectionable. Hopefully this helps color you back to lucid.

Where this began: WBF members were relaying comments from a dealer about the sound quality of the 717 and 'another' small delay in shipping. I I found that curious given that no new ship date has been given and nobody has heard the final product since it is still in development. So, confused as you admit to being, certainly you can understand the logical problem with this.

Also, with respect to responses to Ron Resnick's (now hidden post that violated no rules as I understand them), the FTC rules are not "gossip". I am not sure why you would characterize them as such. If you are curious and maybe still confused, here is a link to the "gossip" site. https://consumer.ftc.gov

Finally, my decision to wait or request a refund is my own. Also, it does not negate the discussion here. While I very much appreciate, respect and even follow the guidance of members here I also find it troubling to see what I can only describe as promotion and sycophancy.

 

[pk_LA]

Is Audioarts a dealer or distributor?

I hope all his customers get loan equipment while waiting for the equipment they ordered.

To my knowledge, AudioArts are a dealer.

And, to my knowledge and based on the comments from well-respected people here, they have treated their clients very well.

 

[Steve williams]

Please read the thread, Steve. Ship Date is ONE of a collection of data points in determining a purchase - not the ONLY one. Consider my point another way...and please try to see where I am coming from. Please. What if the amps are delayed eight months? Would that be too long? Two years? The point being that there is a degree of slippage that most everyone would find objectionable. Hopefully this helps color you back to lucid.

Where this began: WBF members were relaying comments from a dealer about the sound quality of the 717 and 'another' small delay in shipping. I I found that curious given that no new ship date has been given and nobody has heard the final product since it is still in development. So, confused as you admit to being, certainly you can understand the logical problem with this.

Also, with respect to responses to Ron Resnick's (now hidden post that violated no rules as I understand them), the FTC rules are not "gossip". I am not sure why you would characterize them as such. If you are curious and maybe still confused, here is a link to the "gossip" site. https://consumer.ftc.gov

Finally, my decision to wait or request a refund is my own. Also, it does not negate the discussion here. While I very much appreciate, respect and even follow the guidance of members here I also find it troubling to see what I can only describe as promotion and sycophancy.

Patrick. I don’t moderate. I was out most of the day at doctors appointments. When I got home and read the thread those posts were already deleted. I have no idea what the posts state but I do trust my moderating team to always do the right thing.

What I do see is a very interesting thread that I read daily started by Mike who is happy to wait for these amps and iit has been totally detailed with what I think are off topic posts.

 

[pk_LA]

Patrick. I don’t moderate. I was out most of the day at doctors appointments. When I got home and read the thread those posts were already deleted. I have no idea what the posts state but I do trust my moderating team to always do the right thing.

What I do see is a very interesting thread that I read daily started by Mike who is happy to wait for these amps and iit has been totally detailed with what I think are off topic posts.

wow. just wow.

 

[vinyl_mike]

Patrick. I don’t moderate. I was out most of the day at doctors appointments. When I got home and read the thread those posts were already deleted. I have no idea what the posts state but I do trust my moderating team to always do the right thing.

What I do see is a very interesting thread that I read daily started by Mike who is happy to wait for these amps and iit has been totally detailed with what I think are off topic posts.

While others may view this differently, as a customer for the 717 amps I am not upset nor bothered. I made an informed decision based upon the information at hand and have no regrets.

A little chronology and context:

When Gideon offered the 717s to me, he made it clear that they were not yet available. I had two choices: get squeezed into the initial run or wait for a subsequent production run. I chose the first production run. I clearly knew the risks of a first production run.

Upon placing the order, Gideon delivered my 727 preamp and a Soulution 511 loaner amp. Gideon did not wait for a missed delivery date to offer the loaner; I had the amp in place immediately.

When the delay arose, Gideon offered a refund. While I appreciated the gesture, to me this was silly. To lose my place in line and get my money back, only to then have to wait additional months for the second production run, did not make sense to me.

As a relevant point, the 727 Preamp was shipped immediately, and the 757 phono was also shipped immediately and is in transit.

From a listening perspective I have no issues. For the past few months, I've been listening to some of the best sound of my life - with the 727 pre and 511.

From my 40 plus years in high-end audio, periodic long delivery times are to me, just the nature of the beast. I would expect a Sony receiver to be shipped overnight from Amazon, however when we're talking about a new state-of-the art low production component, I expect periodic delays. This is just me and my opinion; others may have their own expectations.

Finally, I think this is commensurate with other high-end products. When I was car shopping, the BMW dealer quoted three to four months for the delivery of a specific iX. Also, as Steve pointed out, the wait for an exotic car is much longer.

As to the sound of the yet to be released 717s, yes, I predicted these could be a game changer. This comment is predicated on auditioning the Soulution 300 series, 500 series, and the new 727 preamp in my system for extended listening. Then I invited Gideon, and he described the changes that he believes the 717s will bring to my specific system. To date, Gideon has been spot on.

Unless I'm missing something, I don't see that I have a problem. I made an informed decision. I had a spectacular system during the wait. I can get my money back today if I am not happy with the delay, and I have reason to believe that with the arrival of the 717s my system will improve dramatically. As of today, I'm a happy camper…

 

[Ron Resnick]

Gideon did not wait for a missed delivery date to offer the loaner; I had the amp in place immediately.

This is fantastic. Loaning a customer a component temporarily while he/she waits for the purchased component to be delivered is truly "above and beyond" type service.

When the delay arose, Gideon offered a refund.

This is extremely classy, and the right thing to do. Bravo, Gideon!

 

[MylesBAstor]

I am floored how a few people hijacked Mike’s thread and tried to make a nothing burger into a smash burger.

First, a few inconvenient truths. Soulution showed the 717 amplifiers at Munich last year and Mono and Stereo published a short press release announcing the new product with an “expected” release date of Q1 2025. Last I looked, we’re still in Q1. So much for being late. I’ve been a reviewer for almost four decades and it’s a rarity for an audio product to get released as announced. Or deliver as promised for review. I’ve had stuff show up six months late and even up to two years. That’s been made worse by today’s post-pandemic world where rents have gone up on machine shops, they have less staff and products take forever to be delivered. I know a manufacturer who placed an order for a new product in June of last year and are still awaiting delivery. All it takes, for instance, is not getting one resistor to gum up the works. One missing part out of a 1000 is all it takes.

Oh, and the new 312 amps came about because the machine shop making Soulution’s electronics’ cases decided to increase their prices. So rather than just switching machine shops and having a new case manufactured, Soulution decided to go the whole way and produce a new amplifier. That is a honey of an amplifier for the money and obviously convinced Mike to change amplifiers and go for Soulution’s best. As I keep updating things in the system—most notably the new VPI “Super Avenger” turntable and Gary Koh’s new Hypersonic X4 cartridge in the recently updated SAT LM-12 arm—the amps and speakers only sound better and better.

(I hope no one here is expecting to order a Ferrari and walk off the lot with it; I’ve only known it to happen once and the owner paid double list price to buy the display model. https://www.drivencarguide.co.nz/news/want-a-new-ferrari-this-is-how-long-youll-have-to-wait/.)

Second. The 717 amplifiers aren’t as of today yet listed on Soulution’s website. The update to the 701, 711+ series are live but nothing about the 717 has been uploaded yet.

Third, people like Mike wanted to be first in line and and laid out the money. No one twisted their arms. I know the feeling too. I heard the now discontinued 330 integrated here and wanted to review the 312 stereo asap. And ended up buying it after reviewing it.

I don’t know about anyone else but I am looking forward to reading about (and eventually hearing) Mike’s new audio toys! Word of warning. Those amplifiers will take a lot of break-in. My 312s took the better part of 400 hours. I’m not a person who has experienced this long a break-in time and was ready to return the amps after 200 hours. (And it’s best to leave them on all the time despite the Soulution’s amps tendency to warm up the room!) But thank goodness I didn’t let my audiophile anxiety get the best of me and exhibited patience.

 

[pk_LA]

I am floored how a few people hijacked Mike’s thread and tried to make a nothing burger into a smash burger.

First, a few inconvenient truths. Soulution showed the 717 amplifiers at Munich last year and Mono and Stereo published a short press release announcing the new product with an “expected” release date of Q1 2025. Last I looked, we’re still in Q1. So much for being late. I’ve been a reviewer for almost four decades and it’s a rarity for an audio product to get released as announced. Or deliver as promised for review. I’ve had stuff show up six months late and even up to two years. That’s been made worse by today’s post-pandemic world where rents have gone up on machine shops, they have less staff and products take forever to be delivered. I know a manufacturer who placed an order for a new product in June of last year and are still awaiting delivery. All it takes, for instance, is not getting one resistor to gum up the works. One missing part out of a 1000 is all it takes.

Oh, and the new 312 amps came about because the machine shop making Soulution’s electronics’ cases decided to increase their prices. So rather than just switching machine shops and having a new case manufactured, Soulution decided to go the whole way and produce a new amplifier. That is a honey of an amplifier for the money and obviously convinced Mike to change amplifiers and go for Soulution’s best. As I keep updating things in the system—most notably the new VPI “Super Avenger” turntable and Gary Koh’s new Hypersonic X4 cartridge in the recently updated SAT LM-12 arm—the amps and speakers only sound better and better.

(I hope no one here is expecting to order a Ferrari and walk off the lot with it; I’ve only known it to happen once and the owner paid double list price to buy the display model. https://www.drivencarguide.co.nz/news/want-a-new-ferrari-this-is-how-long-youll-have-to-wait/.)

Second. The 717 amplifiers aren’t as of today yet listed on Soulution’s website. The update to the 701, 711+ series are live but nothing about the 717 has been uploaded yet.

Third, people like Mike wanted to be first in line and and laid out the money. No one twisted their arms. I know the feeling too. I heard the now discontinued 330 integrated here and wanted to review the 312 stereo asap. And ended up buying it after reviewing it.

I don’t know about anyone else but I am looking forward to reading about (and eventually hearing) Mike’s new audio toys! Word of warning. Those amplifiers will take a lot of break-in. My 312s took the better part of 400 hours. I’m not a person who has experienced this long a break-in time and was ready to return the amps after 200 hours. (And it’s best to leave them on all the time despite the Soulution’s amps tendency to warm up the room!) But thank goodness I didn’t let my audiophile anxiety get the best of me and exhibited patience.

Do you have a sense of how the 312 sounds relative to the 711+? Are they sonically similar? I ask because,
1) I have a 711+ on load at the moment, and
2) I have read that the newest Soulution amps have a touch more warmth (in a good way) than older models.

 

[Colekat]

Patrick , How do you like the 711+ …

 

[pk_LA]

Patrick , How do you like the 711+ …

I really like it. My prior amps were Boulder 3060/3010. That combo was incredibly resolving and had bass control beyond belief. But, for me, I wished for a bit of warmth and smoothness - maybe a tick of tube sound even. The Soulution 727/711+ is a wonderful change to my ears. It has all the detail but with a bit more density and...I am trying to find the right word! Voices and instruments fill the air quite naturally. There is space between them but not so much that there is a loss of cohesiveness. It is really very musical. (I know it is verboten to say that but I think most people know what I mean)

 

[HP_buddy]

I am floored how a few people hijacked Mike’s thread and tried to make a nothing burger into a smash burger.

First, a few inconvenient truths. Soulution showed the 717 amplifiers at Munich last year and Mono and Stereo published a short press release announcing the new product with an “expected” release date of Q1 2025. Last I looked, we’re still in Q1. So much for being late. I’ve been a reviewer for almost four decades and it’s a rarity for an audio product to get released as announced. Or deliver as promised for review. I’ve had stuff show up six months late and even up to two years. That’s been made worse by today’s post-pandemic world where rents have gone up on machine shops, they have less staff and products take forever to be delivered. I know a manufacturer who placed an order for a new product in June of last year and are still awaiting delivery. All it takes, for instance, is not getting one resistor to gum up the works. One missing part out of a 1000 is all it takes.

Oh, and the new 312 amps came about because the machine shop making Soulution’s electronics’ cases decided to increase their prices. So rather than just switching machine shops and having a new case manufactured, Soulution decided to go the whole way and produce a new amplifier. That is a honey of an amplifier for the money and obviously convinced Mike to change amplifiers and go for Soulution’s best. As I keep updating things in the system—most notably the new VPI “Super Avenger” turntable and Gary Koh’s new Hypersonic X4 cartridge in the recently updated SAT LM-12 arm—the amps and speakers only sound better and better.

(I hope no one here is expecting to order a Ferrari and walk off the lot with it; I’ve only known it to happen once and the owner paid double list price to buy the display model. https://www.drivencarguide.co.nz/news/want-a-new-ferrari-this-is-how-long-youll-have-to-wait/.)

Second. The 717 amplifiers aren’t as of today yet listed on Soulution’s website. The update to the 701, 711+ series are live but nothing about the 717 has been uploaded yet.

Third, people like Mike wanted to be first in line and and laid out the money. No one twisted their arms. I know the feeling too. I heard the now discontinued 330 integrated here and wanted to review the 312 stereo asap. And ended up buying it after reviewing it.

I don’t know about anyone else but I am looking forward to reading about (and eventually hearing) Mike’s new audio toys! Word of warning. Those amplifiers will take a lot of break-in. My 312s took the better part of 400 hours. I’m not a person who has experienced this long a break-in time and was ready to return the amps after 200 hours. (And it’s best to leave them on all the time despite the Soulution’s amps tendency to warm up the room!) But thank goodness I didn’t let my audiophile anxiety get the best of me and exhibited patience.

Adding to my recent Soulution 331 integrated amplifier observations above, yes, I agree with Miles on the break in period of a new unit - at least a few hundred hours or more in my experience.. Also, the 331 needs, from start of full power-up mode, about one hour to start sounding its best. Just plan ahead in your listening sessions and the total immersion, liquid flow and jump-factor of the 331 will take you away...

 

[Colekat]

Wow … Patrick you have certainly been entertained with some serious upper shelf electronics … What a great source from experience you must have … And I now clearly understand your reluctance to make premature appraisals of these phantom amplifiers …

And I must say … you should have a highly respected opinion of these incredibly expensive rectangular boxes , as you have certainly paid the price !

As for the Soulution amps … I do know what you mean … I hear the music with an essence of “live “ … very natural . My hope is the 717s will give heart and soul to my favorite recordings like none before …

I’m pretty excited about these amps …Im trying to keep my enthusiasm at a simmer !

 

[chuck]

I really like it. My prior amps were Boulder 3060/3010. That combo was incredibly resolving and had bass control beyond belief. But, for me, I wished for a bit of warmth and smoothness - maybe a tick of tube sound even. The Soulution 727/711+ is a wonderful change to my ears. It has all the detail but with a bit more density and...I am trying to find the right word! Voices and instruments fill the air quite naturally. There is space between them but not so much that there is a loss of cohesiveness. It is really very musical. (I know it is verboten to say that but I think most people know what I mean)

I recall all the hype around the Soulution 701 and 711 amps, much the same as the hype about the 717. So I had the 701 mono amps in for a comparison to my Boulder 3060, if they matched the hype I would have got them. Speakers were Wilson Alexandria X2S2, pre ARC Ref40. We switched back and forth between the 701s and the 3060 several times to be sure, played for several hours. The 701s were definitely "smoother". Warm IMO means the same thing in audio. I estimate that over 10% of the detail was gone, smoothed over, smeared. It was most apparent on orchestral recordings but could be heard on all recordings.

 

[Ron Resnick]

The 701s were definitely "smoother". Warm IMO means the same thing in audio. I estimate that over 10% of the detail was gone, smoothed over, smeared.

Hello Chuck,

Why do you assume the 701s were removing detail by 10%, instead of assuming the Boulder 3060 was accentuating detail by 10%?

What is your principled basis for theorizing attribution one way rather than the other?

 

[microstrip]

I recall all the hype around the Soulution 701 and 711 amps, much the same as the hype about the 717. So I had the 701 mono amps in for a comparison to my Boulder 3060, if they matched the hype I would have got them. Speakers were Wilson Alexandria X2S2, pre ARC Ref40. We switched back and forth between the 701s and the 3060 several times to be sure, played for several hours. The 701s were definitely "smoother". Warm IMO means the same thing in audio. I estimate that over 10% of the detail was gone, smoothed over, smeared. It was most apparent on orchestral recordings but could be heard on all recordings.

Sorry to say , but as far I can read - please check my data taken form manufacturers specifications - it was a faulty and misleading comparison.

The Soulution 701 has a XLR input impedance of 2,3 kohm and can'be properly driven by the ARC Ref 40. The Boulder 3060 has an input impedance of 200 kohm - it is ideal to the REF40.

IMo you should be happy with this comparison - is shows you can easily note the effects of distortion caused by incorrect use of the REF40.

But is unfair to Soulution.

I also found some other sources stating the 701 input impedance as being 4.7 kohm - still too low.

 

[Colekat]

I recall all the hype around the Soulution 701 and 711 amps, much the same as the hype about the 717. So I had the 701 mono amps in for a comparison to my Boulder 3060, if they matched the hype I would have got them. Speakers were Wilson Alexandria X2S2, pre ARC Ref40. We switched back and forth between the 701s and the 3060 several times to be sure, played for several hours. The 701s were definitely "smoother". Warm IMO means the same thing in audio. I estimate that over 10% of the detail was gone, smoothed over, smeared. It was most apparent on orchestral recordings but could be heard on all recordings.

Hey Chuck … I’ll be honest I have not heard the Boulder with the same opportunity as you … Obviously having any two components side by side in the same system is clearly the only true test of ones preference …

This is just a question Chuck … I had the Soulution in for quite awhile before it brought focus to anything I played … Soulution is definitely a slow burn …

My EMM amps , with 3 years of play time were preferred until they were not …

So , just a question … were the Soulutions new compared to a well burned Boulder …

And I know we can play with the semantics here … But that has been a tough to forget …

 

[MylesBAstor]

Do you have a sense of how the 312 sounds relative to the 711+? Are they sonically similar? I ask because,
1) I have a 711+ on load at the moment, and
2) I have read that the newest Soulution amps have a touch more warmth (in a good way) than older models.

Sorry I can’t. I will, however, have a bit more to say about the 312s in the near future.

I think we also have to be careful to differentiate between warmth (coloration/distortion) and warmth (proper rendering of harmonic density). The former can be certainly beguiling but isn’t necessary true to the music.

As I mentioned above, I was drawn to the sound of the new generation Soulution electronics because of the now discontinued 330 integrated. It definitely wasn’t sterile like some other solid-state amps I’ve heard. The 330# were exceedingly transparent and dynamic (with the 92 dB efficient Plural Evos) with impressive three-dimensionality. Something that I missed in my then reference amps. And your results will also depend on the speaker cables. I had great results with AQ Dragon, Zellaton, Ikigai Kangai and Kubala-Sosna Realization speaker cables. Of course, the AQ cables cost more than the amps.