Is High End Audio Gear Worth the Money?

[Elliot G.]

Hello

As a DIY speaker builder I didn't want to let this go. Not all DIY is poorly finished in an ugly box. More importantly you can clone systems for much less than their purchase price providing you have access to the drivers and schematic. An example is the JBL M2. I am not going to get into if the M2 is high end or not it's a moot point.

WRT to the thread like anything else some are some not. I don't see any bargains like there are in lower coast products. Seems to me part of the mystique is the price which should make anyone wary.

Rob

You call copying something DIY? Just curious since I wouldn’t .

 

[microstrip]

You call copying something DIY? Just curious since I wouldn’t .

In fact part, perhaps most of of the existing DIY is just copying - it is a legitim and thoughtful thing to do as long as it is for personnel use.

Some well considered audio designers just re-invent old circuits, why should DIY people have conscience problems?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

How can something be a high end item if it’s only built for you?

Or how can't it be high end if it is only built just for one person?

I respect the DIY community - I have built and modified gear, but accept that builder bias expectation and limited perspective make it a separate domain.

Surely I am not questioning the DIY value for money.

high end hifi is strictly about serious unfettered intensions. it's not about dollars or production runs or personal artistic visions. the community does have a part of validation. but validation is not required.

DIY or swiss watch build quality and all levels in between are ok.

just one man's viewpoint.

 

[TonyW]

This Audio hobby starts with a love for music. A little bit of competition might start with some “Stereo Wars” in the dormitory in college. As we listen and enjoy the music we become attuned to the details and it drives us to seek out ways to improve the sound. There comes a point, a line actually that some of us cross where it is no longer just about music.

Hi End is about having something no one else has. It is about achieving something few others achieve.

It’s not a bad thing. Hear me out. It’s no different than someone training for the Olympics and striving for that Gold Medal. The world adores a winner. We do it for our own satisfaction. We may never know just how well our system matches up to others. We find a point where our system sounds so amazing good to ourselves that we stop- until such time we think of a way or try something to make it sound even better. Even a World Champion is not forever.

I should have gotten into car audio. Then I could have traveled around the country in a BMW with glowing amps and lots of Boomba, Boomba and win big prizes.

 

[Elliot G.]

high end hifi is strictly about serious unfettered intensions. it's not about dollars or production runs or personal artistic visions. the community does have a part of validation. but validation is not required.

DIY or swiss watch build quality and all levels in between are ok.

just one man's viewpoint.

By this definition everything anyone says is high end because they say it is
Sorry you believe what you like to me this makes no sense just my opinion

 

[Elliot G.]

In fact part, perhaps most of of the existing DIY is just copying - it is a legitim and thoughtful thing to do as long as it is for personnel use.

Some well considered audio designers just re-invent old circuits, why should DIY people have conscience problems?

DIY= do it yourself
I know we are discussing semantics but copying someone else’s product yourself for yourself has IMO virtually no value except to the guy that wants to do this for whatever reason. The audio Industry has for generations attempted to make things that sound better . They have done this is various ways . There are new technologies and materials and new designs and there are improvements on old designs.
Doing it for yourself and declaring that it’s great maybe fine but not for me. If you can’t do it and make it successful so others can experience it I find something seriously lacking
Just my opinion

 

[Mike Lavigne]

By this definition everything anyone says is high end because they say it is
Sorry you believe what you like to me this makes no sense just my opinion

i respect that informed, experienced hifi dealer/distributors might have their own also valid more limited viewpoints. and my open ended view does not fit for you. i see no conflict about that. but lots of evidence that very serious hifi efforts come in multitudes of shapes and sizes so the participant viewpoint is less constricted. it can be a jury of one. merely a serious high end effort get's much of the way there.....since there is a road to travel and places on that road. since what we most respect is the effort. not the thing.

both can be correct.

 

[Lagonda]

That may be a wonderful place but it’s not the real world and it is not the definition of high end anything.
Just because you say something is doesn’t mean it is.
That I would argue is the definition of the internet where every one knows everything and that they all know more than the best in the field.
The guys that can make a M7 for 5000.00
These statements are what they are but high end is making something that is better than what is normal and how can that be if no one ever gets to experience it.
There is reality and there is fantasy and they are different.
How do you know if a tree falls in the forest ?
I’m a realist and this is a discussion of abstract philosophy .
Anyone can claim anything and bless them but only things that can be shown and have witness mean they actually happened in Audio.
We aren’t trying to find the meaning of life here

Most of your smaller "hig-end" manufacturers are just a few years away from DIY, not long ago they where do it yourselfers. A little more shine, lacker and polish and they are selling a hundred thousand dollar product. What really distinguishes the the commercial "high-end" products is the level of marketing put behind the products. That being Göbels, Wadax, Aries Cerat, Taiko or Lampi. Most of these products are built in low quantities with little long time testing behind them. And sold at crazy prices.

 

[Rensselaer]

it is no longer just about music.

Hi End is about having something no one else has. It is about achieving something few others achieve.
It’s no different than someone training for the Olympics and striving for that Gold Medal.

“It’s no different than someone training for the Olympics …”, really?

I don’t believe it’s possible (yet) to buy a place on the winning podium at the Olympics. You can’t get out of endless work and sacrifice by just buying the world record and gold medal.

High End hi fi, that’s easy. Just open your wallet and put your money down.
You just bought great music performances for your home.

Oh, but you said “it is no longer just about music”. What is it about then? To show off? To say “look what I bought, I’m so much richer than you”? Next you’ll be thinking that owning a more expensive hi fi makes you a greater authority on the subject. You’ll be writing responses to every entry in a thread, like this one.

 

[hopkins]

...high end is making something that is better than what is normal and how can that be if no one ever gets to experience it.

So by that logic anything rare should be dismissed as irrelevant?

I suspect your world gravitates around audio shows and dealerships and you simply have no idea about anything else out there.

Things sometimes take a little effort to seek out, but they can be worthwhile.

 

[the sound of Tao]

I guess if you define high end only as an area of market place then commercial availability is a fundamental part of your defining prism.

If you define high end as a performance objective then both commercial and diy can obviously apply.

 

[TonyW]

“It’s no different than someone training for the Olympics …”, really?

I don’t believe it’s possible (yet) to buy a place on the winning podium at the Olympics. You can’t get out of endless work and sacrifice by just buying the world record and gold medal.

High End hi fi, that’s easy. Just open your wallet and put your money down.
You just bought great music performances for your home.

You have a knack for twisting words around. And if you really believe it is just about spending money you have no idea.

Or maybe I have it all wrong because I had to work at building my audio system all these years with sacrifice, doubts, frustrations and eventually some success. I should have done it your way- big spender.

 

[Elliot G.]

In order to have a discussion of whether high end audio is worth it it seems imperative to know what high end audio is no?
What is high end audio ?

 

[the sound of Tao]

DIY= do it yourself
I know we are discussing semantics but copying someone else’s product yourself for yourself has IMO virtually no value except to the guy that wants to do this for whatever reason. The audio Industry has for generations attempted to make things that sound better . They have done this is various ways . There are new technologies and materials and new designs and there are improvements on old designs.
Doing it for yourself and declaring that it’s great maybe fine but not for me. If you can’t do it and make it successful so others can experience it I find something seriously lacking
Just my opinion

(1) Being purely innovative and original through to (2) authentically utilising precedents of previous design within concept development and then across to the negative spectrum of (3) designs just being primarily copyist and largely only recreating and then out to (4) blatant copyist and the open hijacking of intellectual property and then (5) the violating of copyright… any or all these approaches can be applied to both commercial or non commercial products.

The majority of commercial design seems to often/mostly involve some level of (2) or (3) though exceptionally (1) can be a thing and unfortunately levels of (4) and (5) can equally be the reality as well. With marketing honest assessment about what’s really innovative and what’s hype can easily be a bit dodgy or a skewed reflection of reality.

With DIY it’s hard to establish what trends in the levels of originality dominate other than by anecdotal evidence… there is no clear and complete data.

Ultimately though for people who design and create coming to respect and preserve intellectual property is an important step in their growth… both in the world of commercial products and in DIY. Some get it and some don’t.

 

[microstrip]

(...) What is high end audio ?

You defined its main desirable characteristics some days ago, no need to go through it again. But one point seems fundamental for me - high end audio is a mainly (but not only) subjective affair, it needs a statistically valid confirmation of sound quality. And this implies a significant number of opinions.

 

[Iamrael]

I think that if you take a “whole system approach” view we are all DIY’s.
We (the end users) are the manufacturers/designers of our system.
With a goal in mind we set out to procure the necessary components to hopefully achieve the results we seek.
Every so often when technology advances or we become aquatinted with different products we experiment (much the same way a Nelson Pass would experiment with different types of capacitor from various manufacturers) and then come up with our new system version, a MK Ii.
We’re only further down the chain.

 

[tima]

Is lasting musical satisfaction worth the money? I suppose you could travel the world to hear top concerts, but it's also quite satisfying to hear music in your home. And a stereo gives you repeatability.

 

[exupgh12]

How can something be a high end item if it’s only built for you?

Elliot,

In your opinion, is the late Ken Fritz audio system considered a high-end system or not?
His speakers and turntable where DIY.

 

[hopkins]

Is lasting musical satisfaction worth the money? I suppose you could travel the world to hear top concerts, but it's also quite satisfying to hear music in your home. And a stereo gives you repeatability.

Coleman Hawkins did not listen to jazz at home - he believed that you had to hear it live. He spend his time at home listening to classical music (source: his biography by John Chilton). I've often wondered about that.

Perhaps he did not experience classical music in concert halls? In NYC, at the time, you could go out every night and listen to live jazz music performed by top musicians - he was regularly performing as well. If you did that, I can understand that you would have less interest in listening to the same music at home. When I went to that "listener" bar in Paris, I asked the bartender if he ever got sick of listening to music all day, and he told me no, but that he was no longer listening at home...

On the other hand, perhaps Coleman Hawkins was just more conscious of the limitations of home stereo when it came to music that he was intimately familiar with? If that's the case, would he have a different point of view if he were to listen to some of today's "high end" systems? I don't think so. For "non audiophiles", the gap between live music and home stereo - regardless of cost - is so wide, that they don't see it as "worth it". They are not deluded like we are. There's no valid answer to the OP's question. It's a personal choice to embark on high end audio, and people do it looking for different things. Some want to recreate a live performance, others want "immersion" which you don't necessarily get in a live performance. Some want to hear the subtle details, that you don't always hear in a live performance. Others don't care about the subtle details, etc...

 

[exupgh12]

On the other hand, perhaps Coleman Hawkins was just more conscious of the limitations of home stereo when it came to music that he was intimately familiar with? If that's the case, would he have a different point of view if he were to listen to some of today's "high end" systems?

People are going to the cinema then, and today everyone ought to know that the home cinema can get you there.

I don't think so. For "non audiophiles", the gap between live music and home stereo - regardless of cost - is so wide, that they don't see it as "worth it". They are not deluded like we are. There's no valid answer to the OP's question. It's a personal choice to embark on high end audio, and people do it looking for different things. Some want to recreate a live performance, others want "immersion" which you don't necessarily get in a live performance. Some want to hear the subtle details, that you don't always hear in a live performance. Others don't care about the subtle details, etc...

High-end audio is just another entertainment and hobby people can get into. not everyone (actually most people) wants, can, or cares to dive and spend so much money on this kind of entertainment\hobby.