Is High End Audio Gear Worth the Money?

[TonyW]

Ah no…
I not sure we both understand what those graphs are trying to show.

Loudspeaker step response measurement and explanation

Learn how to make a loudspeaker step response measurement using ARTA. The data is extracted from the impulse response.

audiojudgement.com

Earlier in the thread people were talking about how much getting the polarity right matters.
There is either timing problem or a phase problem with the Alexx that, while they are wildly more expensive than the Quad ESLs, their performance on this particular front is not as good.
Actually the negative section in the snaggletooth indicates that the midrange is going backwards, rather than forwards.
That either matters, or it doesn’t… but someone mentioned that the hooking up the wires correctly was step #1.

While the Wilsons also look more expensive in terms on construction, I’d take the Quad ELS myself just based upon measurements.. because in this case the ESLs are worth the money.

I get what you mean. I don’t think it is uncommon for some drivers to be wired in reverse. It’s the phase angle of the signal coming out of the crossover that requires it. All the end user can do is wire one of two speakers backwards or both backwards. My DAC sends out an inverted signal so they recommend reversing the leads on the speakers. Since I also use a phono preamp I simply hit the Invert button on my Line Stage preamp when using the DAC.

I have heard speakers before that made me feel disoriented or just the sound stage imaging seemed twisted around. Mostly back in the 80s. I wonder if that was caused by out of phase drivers. And not by design but by built in defect- as in someone may have wired a driver in the wrong way at the factory.

And frankly, I do not hear much of a difference when I switch between inverted and normal on my preamp when playing the DAC. I should try actually reversing the speaker wires maybe to see if that is more audible for me.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I’ve seen several turntables that could not play the Telarc pressing of 1812. That record came out in the early 1980s. If the set-up is not right that record will slam the tonearm into the center stop- it’s where the canons fire. The grooves where the canons fire are nearly at right angles.

The build up as you wait to see if the tonearm is going to track it is as exciting as the music.

Back in the day, hifi was so much fun- like when we would try to get our woofers to blow out a match…

The album is from 1979. See pics below.

i have that Telarc pressing, and a bunch of other 1812 pressings. at one point years ago i did try to play that and was not able to without some mis tracking,. but i do not recall if i tried any tweaking to figure it out. my set-up could easily track all the other pressings.

not sure tracking that cannon passage is a worthy target in the big picture, and how much steady tracking on that relates to overall preferred vinyl performance. i guess i would need to play around and see where doing that might take me. i'm open to it being of value, or leading me away from what i like.

consider that as far as suspension, the greatest suspension travel and compliance typically also comes with a reduction in precision and stability. on my 2" lifted Jeep Wrangler Rubicon there is a switch on the dashboard that disconnects the front and rear sway bars, and allows a ridiculous amount of wheel travel for rock climbing. there is also a setting which allows for 'creep' mode, a 2mph steady speed for creeping over large rocks.....where your foot on the gas pedal would reduce control. i've only used these features on one trail so far, and they allow for out of the world abilities in terms of what the Jeep can do without breaking a sweat.

OTOH you should never use these features on a real world road at normal speeds, the Jeep would be very unstable and unsafe. even in normal mode and driving around town or on the freeway, the Jeep is far less stable and precise than my Honda Passport, or especially compared to my dearly departed 2016 911 CS2.

i think i prefer having the 911 CS2 version of an arm/cartridge, not the Jeep version. doing the rocks/cannon shots is just not my musical goal.

i realize that there is a dynamic resonance aspect to this analogy which might not be present in the Jeep case.

i do not really know whether i'm making a valid point or not. maybe tracking that cannon shot is absolutely a positive thing for ultimate musical cartridge performance. but maybe not. for sure that sort of music has not been a reference. my cartridges are able to track test tracks and seem to be performing correctly.

 

[TonyW]

i have that Telarc pressing, and a bunch of other 1812 pressings. at one point years ago i did try to play that and was not able to. but i do not recall if i tried any tweaking to figure it out.

not sure tracking that cannon passage is a worthy target in the big picture, and how much steady tracking on that relates to overall preferred vinyl performance. i guess i would need to play around and see where doing that might take me. i'm open to it being of value, or leading me away from what i like.

consider that as far as suspension, the greatest suspension travel and compliance typically also comes with a reduction in precision and stability. on my 2" lifted Jeep Wrangler Rubicon there is a switch on the dashboard that disconnects the front and rear sway bars, and allows a ridiculous amount of wheel travel for rock climbing. there is also a setting which allows for 'creep' mode, a 2mph steady speed for creeping over large rocks.....where your foot on the gas pedal would reduce control. i've only used these features on one trail so far, and they allow for out of the world abilities in terms of what the Jeep can do without breaking a sweat.

OTOH you should never use these features on a real world road at normal speeds, the Jeep would be very unstable and unsafe. even in normal mode and driving around town or on the freeway, the Jeep is far less stable and precise than my Honda Passport, or especially compared to my dearly departed 2016 911 CS2.

i think i prefer having the 911 CS2 version of an arm/cartridge, not the Jeep version. doing the rocks/cannon shots is just not my musical goal.

i do not really know whether i'm making a valid point or not. maybe tracking that cannon shot is absolutely a positive thing for ultimate musical cartridge performance. but maybe not.

I get what you are saying. I haven’t played that record in years. But my SME arm could usually track it. It will plod through anything. A couple of buddies with the ET-II Linear Tracking arms back in the day- forget about it.

My Grandfather had a Wileys Jeep army surplus that he used for duck hunting. He taught me how to drive in it. I’m 8 years old, he’s yelling, I’m crying and grinding gears. That was mid 60s. Fun fact: If you drove those jeeps on pavement you had to pull off the road and drive in dirt every so often to unload the suspension. The full time 4 wheel drive would wind up the suspension. They made lockout hub kits for those old jeeps to safely drive them on the road. And about that 4 wheel drive system on the WWII Wileys Jeeps: If one wheel looses traction the jeep stops.

 

[Holmz]

I get what you mean. I don’t think it is uncommon for some drivers to be wired in reverse. It’s the phase angle of the signal coming out of the crossover that requires it. All the end user can do is wire one of two speakers backwards or both backwards. My DAC sends out an inverted signal so they recommend reversing the leads on the speakers.

My Audible Illusions did that as well.
Hence the speakers got wired up looking wrong.

Since I also use a phono preamp I simply hit the Invert button on my Line Stage preamp when using the DAC.

I have heard speakers before that made me feel disoriented or just the sound stage imaging seemed twisted around. Mostly back in the 80s. I wonder if that was caused by out of phase drivers. And not by design but by built in defect- as in someone may have wired a driver in the wrong way at the factory.

And frankly, I do not hear much of a difference when I switch between inverted and normal on my preamp when playing the DAC. I should try actually reversing the speaker wires maybe to see if that is more audible for me.

Yep - this may also be why the planar speakers generally have a coherent sound.

Toole says it doesn’t matter, but it is not reproducing what the microphone picked up.
So it is technically not correct.
Whether or not the ears hear it, is a question for people that understand how the ears work.

But it does allow for less expensive drivers to be used, so there is that.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I get what you are saying. I haven’t played that record in years. But my SME arm could usually track it. It will plod through anything. A couple of buddies with the ET-II Linear Tracking arms back in the day- forget about it.

My Grandfather had a Wileys Jeep army surplus that he used for duck hunting. He taught me how to drive in it. I’m 8 years old, he’s yelling, I’m crying and grinding gears. That was mid 60s. Fun fact: If you drove those jeeps on pavement you had to pull off the road and drive in dirt every so often to unload the suspension. The full time 4 wheel drive would wind up the suspension. They made lockout hub kits for those old jeeps to safely drive them on the road. And about that 4 wheel drive system on the WWII Wileys Jeeps. If one wheel looses traction the jeep stops.

with my 24' Rubicon you also have 4 high and 4 low with locking differentials. so you are not losing traction if you keep the speed right, in snow you add 4 wheel chains and it's basically unstoppable and you can pull cars out of ditches.....if you are so inclined. add a snorkel and you can ford streams up to the top of the hood.

it's a hammer, not a scalpel. a tool with a narrow use case. i own it because it's the ideal tow vehicle for my motorhome and a toy to use when i'm adventuring.

 

[Holmz]

with my 24' Rubicon you also have 4 high and 4 low with locking differentials. so you are not losing traction if you keep the speed right, in snow you add 4 wheel chains and it's basically unstoppable and you can pull cars out of ditches.....if you are so inclined.

I thought that once, but spent the night with the chassis sitting on the snow after breaking through the crust.

I get what you are saying. I haven’t played that record in years. But my SME arm could usually track it. It will plod through anything. A couple of buddies with the ET-II Linear Tracking arms back in the day- forget about it.

My Grandfather had a Wileys Jeep army surplus that he used for duck hunting. He taught me how to drive in it. I’m 8 years old, he’s yelling, I’m crying and grinding gears. That was mid 60s. Fun fact: If you drove those jeeps on pavement you had to pull off the road and drive in dirt every so often to unload the suspension. The full time 4 wheel drive would wind up the suspension. They made lockout hub kits for those old jeeps to safely drive them on the road. And about that 4 wheel drive system on the WWII Wileys Jeeps: If one wheel looses traction the jeep stops.

I think it was semi common to use a 4:11 rear differential ( tooth pinion and 37 tooth ring gear) and a 4.10 front differential (10t and 4x teeth), which loads up the drive train when going straight, but any turns generally has the tail end going less of a distance than the front end so it is pulling itself along with the front paws.

 

[TonyW]

I thought that once, but spent the night with the chassis sitting on the snow after breaking through the crust.


I think it was semi common to use a 4:11 rear differential ( tooth pinion and 37 tooth ring gear) and a 4.10 front differential (10t and 4x teeth), which loads up the drive train when going straight, but any turns generally has the tail end going less of a distance than the front end so it is pulling itself along with the front paws.

You might be right. I never did much off roading. I was in fuel systems when working in automotive. When I was at the Jeep and GM Hummer off-road proving grounds I never drove the vehicles. I wanted to close my eyes but I just couldn’t. I preferred to get out and walk but they wouldn’t let me.

If you have that downhill crawl feature in your vehicle and you trust it then you can pretty much drive over a cliff that goes close to vertical downward and it will crawl its way to the bottom. Just make sure the angle lets the front bumper clear the bottom. I have done it unwillingly, at the proving grounds.

I just checked to see if my X7 has that button. It does. Hope to never use it.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I thought that once, but spent the night with the chassis sitting on the snow after breaking through the crust.

the voice of experience. frozen lake? or just layers and layers of snow built up?

 

[Holmz]

the voice of experience. frozen lake? or just layers and layers of snow built up?

It was the road up to Butler peak (I think)… just outside of Fawnskin in Big Bear California.
Was a big drift on the dirt road hiding under the snow.
The wind blows up from San Bernardino and they get about 5x more snow on the side of the lake with the dam, than on the east side towards the desert.
Hence some big swirls can make big drifts in any depression.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

It was the road up to Butler peak (I think)… just outside of Fawnskin in Big Bear California.
Was a big drift on the dirt road hiding under the snow.
The wind blows up from San Bernardino and they get about 5x more snow on the side of the lake with the dam, than on the east side towards the desert.
Hence some big swirls can make big drifts in any depression.

was in Death Valley a month ago, and went about 25 miles through the wash and debris fan and up one of the canyons in the Jeep. lots of crazy sand deposits one must avoid unless you want a huge expense to get extracted. i don't yet have a winch but not sure there would be anything to hook onto there anyway. i do respect mother nature and limits of tech and realize i have a big learning curve.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...the guys in Iceland are always letting out air. Adding air back. Clambering around. Highly entertaining.

 

[dbeau]

was in Death Valley a month ago, and went about 25 miles through the wash and debris fan and up one of the canyons in the Jeep. lots of crazy sand deposits one must avoid unless you want a huge expense to get extracted. i don't yet have a winch but not sure there would be anything to hook onto there anyway. i do respect mother nature and limits of tech and realize i have a big learning curve.

We lived in So CA desert off Mex border for 70+ years. After Army svc. we bought a CJ5 and spent weekends off road and in Mex too.
About 20 years ago, after Jeep sat dormant for 10 years, my son invited us for a 4W club event at Moab Utah. We spent a month just getting the CJ5 running good and went - Scared the hell out of us and we decided to modify the jeep or never use it again.
Long story > short: Our son spent about a year and did a MAJOR rebuild, extending the frame, 1 ton axles with locking diffs, 7 pt cage roll bar, 37" tires, extra low transmission, fuel injected engine, shifted weight distribution forward, in short a capable rock crawler.
We went back to Moab and did the most challenging trails and it Scared the hell out of us again. The jeep was not suitable for normal road use anymore either. We sold it after 54 years and moving to Oklahoma. Now just enjoying music as much as possible and consider every dime spent on audio worth the money. BTW, we've been into "Hi-Fi" and music for 60+ years and have never regretted the $$ even though sometimes sacrifical.

 

[hopkins]

A big thank you to Ron for being kind enough to post this. Gosh, I'm hoping I have a few more people on THIS forum that agree with me. I truly love the level of enthusiasm out here and the mega systems. I'd like to hang out here more, but not always hours in the day. I will make it a point if you all think it's ok.

I always worry that as publisher of TONE, what I have to say will be tainted by the fact that I have advertisers, so...

But I do really enjoy the level of systems, and knowledge that is here.

..."when was the last time someone came into your workplace and told you what you do sucks and you had no worth..."

Picture of Elon Musk removed by moderators...

 

[Kingrex]

I would like to take a shot at these big fellas.

 

[Kingrex]

OCD Mike has an ok video where he show 2 inert speakers and how they voice, then a speaker designed to resonate. Non are right or wrong. Just a flavor. It made me think about my speaker. Ze'ev says his speaker is designed to resonate. He has tried damped. Said it was more articulate. But it lacked emotion.

 

[Rensselaer]

What was the OP’s question?

 

[ssfas]

...the guys in Iceland are always letting out air. Adding air back. Clambering around. Highly entertaining.

I went across northern Iceland in the winter in heavy snow in a little camper van. No need to muck around with the tyres. They helpfully have little yellow sticks either side of the road to give you an idea where it is. Welcome to Siglufjarðarvegur on the Arctic.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I went across northern Iceland in the winter in heavy snow in a little camper van. No need to muck around with the tyres. They helpfully have little yellow sticks either side of the road to give you an idea where it is. Welcome to Siglufjarðarvegur on the Arctic.
View attachment 147851

had to be an awesome trip.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...man, I love that place, any season.

 

[Atmasphere]

But you are right that was not the ideal sound spot.

It varies from LP to LP and from cartridge to cartridge.

I do not hear much of a difference when I switch between inverted and normal on my preamp when playing the DAC.

Polarity is much easier to hear when the recording was done with only two microphones.

i don't yet have a winch but not sure there would be anything to hook onto there anyway.

The better the four wheel drive the further out you get stuck.