Is High End Audio Gear Worth the Money?

[Newton John]

I give up.

Sorry, should I have not posted that?

 

[Rensselaer]

Sorry, should I have not posted that?

No, it’s alright. Glad you enjoyed that concert.

 

[Rensselaer]

People (and reviewers) talk about this all the time, I don't know what you are referring to as a "typical review".



So musical enjoyment is not compatible with critical analysis?

The “Rensselaer” entry I am taken to that you seem to be quoting, doesn’t have these quotes. Would you kindly tell me where I said this?

 

[hopkins]

For me, it is how natural the presentation is. How easily the music flows forth. How little the system imposes itself. How much energy fills the room. Nothing that one reads in the typical review.

People (and reviewers) talk about this all the time, I don't know what you are referring to as a "typical review".

I drop the needle and I hear music, not elements or bits and pieces of the sound.

So musical enjoyment is not compatible with critical analysis?

 

[hopkins]

The “Rensselaer” entry I am taken to that you seem to be quoting, doesn’t have these quotes. Would you kindly tell me where I said this?

Just a glitch in my reply. Sorry.

 

[thedudeabides]

.So musical enjoyment is not compatible with critical analysis?

Of course but only to a certain level of total emotional immersion. Critical analysis, by definition, creates a mindset (an invisible wall if you will) that hinders total immersion. Somewhat akin to the often used descriptor (my paraphrase) "I stopped hearing the gear and heard only the music". Or said another way, a suspension of objective criteria in favor of complete emotional (subjective) envelopment. This is the magic that "measurements" cannot quantify. This is what the "if you can't measure it, it doesn't exist" camp ascribe to and use as their main objection / criitque to hi end products.

 

[Al M.]

So musical enjoyment is not compatible with critical analysis?

Of course it is. Apart from sound analysis, musical analysis can enhance enjoyment.

In a PBS documentary of "American Masters" about Michael Tilson Thomas the conductor relates a story about how, when he was a young student, his teacher Ingolf Dahl took him to a chamber music concert:

"We listened to the first movement of the piece and he said, 'did you enjoy that?'. I said, 'oh yes, very much'. He said 'what form was it in?' and I said, 'well, I wasn't listening to analyze it, I was listening to enjoy it' and he said 'in classical music analysis is inseparable from enjoyment'."

Certainly, one can debate about the *necessity* of analysis, but there is no doubt about the *benefits* of analysis. I have experienced this over and over again. The more I follow music in detail and hear the connections within it, the more I enjoy it.

As for sound of the music, it's nice to talk about the whole "gestalt" and not listening to 'bits and pieces', but that only gets you so far. If you want to pursue improvements, analysis is necessary. Same as when you want to communicate what you hear in the sound.

 

[hopkins]

Critical analysis, by definition, creates a mindset (an invisible wall if you will) that hinders total immersion.

I am not suggesting you spend your time exclusively in an analytical mindset.

Let me put it differently, and as simply as I can. What is the difference between PeterA stating this about his Vitavox/Lamm system:

"For me, it is how natural the presentation is. How easily the music flows forth. How little the system imposes itself. How much energy fills the room."

...and Jo Schmo stating the same thing about his desktop speakers?

 

[PeterA]

So musical enjoyment is not compatible with critical analysis?

I responded to a question about how I know that I am connecting emotionally to the music. My answer involved an analysis. When the presentation of the music in my room makes me focus on bits and pieces and attributes, I’m no longer emotionally connected to the music.

Whether or not the two are compatible, did not factor into my answer to the question. I don’t think of it that way I don’t know how to answer your question.

 

[PeterA]

As for sound of the music, it's nice to talk about the whole "gestalt" and not listening to 'bits and pieces', but that only gets you so far. If you want to pursue improvements, analysis is necessary. Same as when you want to communicate what you hear in the sound.

I agree with that, but those are very different subjects from the question I was answering.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Worth the money ....
Im listening to nice relaxing piano music .
It relaxes the mind / opens up perspectives.

Its nice to have a music system, couldnt see myself without one

 

[hopkins]

I responded to a question about how I know that I am connecting emotionally to the music. My answer involved an analysis. When the presentation of the music in my room makes me focus on bits and pieces and attributes, I’m no longer emotionally connected to the music.

Whether or not the two are compatible, did not factor into my answer to the question. I don’t think of it that way I don’t know how to answer your question.

Fare enough - to me it's a question of just switching my focus on music or sound.

 

[thedudeabides]

Ok, we’re almost there.

I’m wondering if you compared two components in your home system, say interconnects for example, using your favourite Gorecki recording, played with what you had been using, then again with the other interconnects swapped in.

Gear doesn't matter to me anymore and no longer impacts my emotional reaction to music. But I certainly understand why that is an important factor for many. I now have a very simple system (due to fire and a much smaller house) consisting of two small speakers that sit on my window sill, two wires, my tablet and a classical music streaming service. Used to be "into it" for some 40 years (MBL, Martin Logan, Joseph Audio, REL, Pass Labs, Conrad Johnson, Luxman, Shunyata Research, etc.) but am happy with what I have.

I hope you get "there" wherever that may be. Best.

 

[microstrip]

Of course but only to a certain level of total emotional immersion. Critical analysis, by definition, creates a mindset (an invisible wall if you will) that hinders total immersion. Somewhat akin to the often used descriptor (my paraphrase) "I stopped hearing the gear and heard only the music". Or said another way, a suspension of objective criteria in favor of complete emotional (subjective) envelopment.

Some people call it simply musical enjoyment.

This is the magic that "measurements" cannot quantify.

Curiously this magic can be measured. Perception scientists do it regularly and analyse the results statistically. But the resources and time needed are not compatible with audiophile exigence.

As far as I know high end audio is developed mainly by analysis. But I can be wrong.

This is what the "if you can't measure it, it doesn't exist" camp ascribe to and use as their main objection / criitque to hi end products.

IMO it is a different subject.

 

[hopkins]

I responded to a question about how I know that I am connecting emotionally to the music. My answer involved an analysis. When the presentation of the music in my room makes me focus on bits and pieces and attributes, I’m no longer emotionally connected to the music.

Whether or not the two are compatible, did not factor into my answer to the question. I don’t think of it that way I don’t know how to answer your question.

P.S. Incidentally I was just listening to a track ("Blues For Piney Brown" - Ben Webster & Harry Edison) in which you can hear the musicians talking in the background during Oscar Peterson's piano solo - if you start trying to figure out what's going on there, you don't listen to the piano. Is that the sort of "bits and pieces" you are talking about, and in that case, is a less resolving system preferable?

 

[Pokey77]

Pokey,

If you are a Leonard fan, the Live in London is amazing, musically and sonically. Even if you own others, still get this one.

@thedudeabides

I always appreciate music rec's. My education of Leonard Cohen is from the 80s by way of Jennifer Warnes - Famous Blue Raincoat. Always loved hearing thoughtful lyrics sung by a songbird. -I've only listened to Cohen a few times here and there over the years and always considered him an acquired taste. I have now listened to "Live in London" up to the first break, which is track Nine. I feel like I am acquiring a taste for Cohen and that is appreciated. I loved the words in that last song as he refrains 'there's a crack in everything; that's how the light gets in'. I see why so many love him as he appears to be a man of wisdom and insight. I'm an 'organized' man myself, but I've really enjoyed what I've heard so far, and I'm heading back to listen to more now.

I realize the above doesn't really directly apply to the topic at hand, but does lend itself to saying 'yes, High End Audio Gear is Worth the Money'. It allows me to engage with music I love on a higher level. And this forum allows me to engage with those of like mind. Thanks to the OP for starting this thread, and to @thedudeabides for the music rec.

​

 

[Lagonda]

@thedudeabides

I always appreciate music rec's. My education of Leonard Cohen is from the 80s by way of Jennifer Warnes - Famous Blue Raincoat. Always loved hearing thoughtful lyrics sung by a songbird. -I've only listened to Cohen a few times here and there over the years and always considered him an acquired taste. I have now listened to "Live in London" up to the first break, which is track Nine. I feel like I am acquiring a taste for Cohen and that is appreciated. I loved the words in that last song as he refrains 'there's a crack in everything; that's how the light gets in'. I see why so many love him as he appears to be a man of wisdom and insight. I'm an 'organized' man myself, but I've really enjoyed what I've heard so far, and I'm heading back to listen to more now.

I realize the above doesn't really directly apply to the topic at hand, but does lend itself to saying 'yes, High End Audio Gear is Worth the Money'. It allows me to engage with music I love on a higher level. And this forum allows me to engage with those of like mind. Thanks to the OP for starting this thread, and to @thedudeabides for the music rec.

​

Here are some nice interpretations of Leonard Cohen songs, also highly recommended.

Tower of Song: The Songs of Leonard Cohen - Va... | AllMusic

Tower of Song: The Songs of Leonard Cohen by Various Artists released in 1995. Find album reviews, track lists, credits, awards and more at AllMusic.

www.allmusic.com

 

[Pokey77]

Here are some nice interpretations of Leonard Cohen songs, also highly recommended.

Tower of Song: The Songs of Leonard Cohen - Va... | AllMusic

Tower of Song: The Songs of Leonard Cohen by Various Artists released in 1995. Find album reviews, track lists, credits, awards and more at AllMusic.

www.allmusic.com

It’s in the queue.

 

[thedudeabides]

I am not suggesting you spend your time exclusively in an analytical mindset.

Let me put it differently, and as simply as I can. What is the difference between PeterA stating this about his Vitavox/Lamm system:

"For me, it is how natural the presentation is. How easily the music flows forth. How little the system imposes itself. How much energy fills the room."

...and Jo Schmo stating the same thing about his desktop speakers?

I've given my perspective on emotional involvement. Obviously, folks will differ as to what is necessary or relevant that allows each individual to attain that mental state of mind. Peter A. has provided his insight. I respect that but so what. Doesn't make him any more correct or accurate than me or anyone else. What a silly and meaningless comparison. The difference is that there will always be a difference. Duh.

And it's the first time I've been called Jo Schmo. Thanks for making it "simple". And of course for the kind words.

 

[Grateful]

(due to fire and a much smaller house)

I’m extremely sorry to hear your house burned down! That’s horrible and one of my greatest fears!