Is High End Audio Gear Worth the Money?

[andromedaaudio]

If hifi is so great why do people still go to concerts?

HIFI gear is merely a tool as to have a discussion on an audio forum

 

[PeterA]

OCD HiFi Guy has a video where his wife walks in the room and starts crying listening to music.

I played Johnny Cash for my girlfriend and she started crying because it reminded her of a childhood friend who had just passed away.

PeterA talks about his fond memories of attending concerts with his parents as a child. Maybe that's a driver for his obsession with recreating what he considers to be "live" sound (and what could be perceived by some as an acoustic nightmare).

You can read about audiophiles having "strong emotional responses" to music on audio forums all the time, to a point where it gets tedious.

The reality, however, is that these say very little about the system. Music can trigger those personal, individual, responses whether you listen to a high end system or a bluetooth speaker.

Or while listening to a car radio. But there is a reason most of us here go beyond that. Why do you think that is?

 

[Rexp]

HIFI gear is merely a tool as to have a discussion on an audio forum

Sad but probably true.

 

[Rexp]

If hifi is so great why do people still go to concerts? They seem more popular than ever. Home audio may be better or worse, but never even close to the real experience.

Going to listen to Igor Levit and Lucas Sternath play Prokofiev and Shostakovich tonight - it was sold out months ago.

If your high-end system playing your favourite recordings is never even close to a attending a concert, why bother with high-end? Personally I'd much rather listen to a good Coltrane recording than any living Jazz musician live.

 

[Hornsolutions Swen]

HIFI gear is merely a tool as to have a discussion on an audio forum

95% of our customers are not registered in any forum and have no interest in registering anywhere. Therefore, I would rather consider this claim as a small joke.

 

[ssfas]

If your high-end system playing your favourite recordings is never even close to an attending a concert, why bother with high-end? Personally I'd much rather listen to a good Coltrane recording than any living Jazz musician live.

That’s very sad. The last jazz gig I went to (last week) the sax players were Donald Harrison and Azar Lawrence (standing in for Billy Harper). Donald Harrison played a 20 minute solo that was mesmerising. Plus I enjoyed it with my wife, one of our sons and his girlfriend. Besides the electricity of a live packed out gig compared to a sterile home listening experience, jazz is to a large part an improvisational music form and, whilst I listen to lots of jazz records, each time I play them they always sound the same.

Besides this lot of rank amateurs, we had Cecil McBee on bass and Billy Hart on percussion.

 

[Rexp]

That’s very sad. The last jazz gig I went to (last week) the sax players were Donald Harrison and Azar Lawrence (standing in for Billy Harper). Donald Harrison played a 20 minute solo that was mesmerising. Plus I enjoyed it with my wife, one of our sons and his girlfriend. Besides the electricity of a live packed out gig compared to a sterile home listening experience, jazz is to a large part an improvisational music form and, whilst I listen to lots of jazz records, each time I play them they always sound the same.

Besides this lot of rank amateurs, we had Cecil McBee on bass and Billy Hart on percussion.
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It is sad that you find listening to your system a sterile experience.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I do believe this is a great example of the opportunity cost of playing battleship semantics ceaselessly in our hobby. Years and years of endless tit for tat point making that never progresses past an intransigent opening foray on to any

I agree that audiophiles seem more interested "in endless tit for tat point making" and in hunting for ways to disagree and to drive wedges between differing views, rather than in seeking to reconcile differing views and bridge divides in understanding (especially bonzo75 and microstrip, in my opinion).

meaningful understanding of what could actually be important fundamentals about what might actually create these essential divides in perception

Here I have tried. An appreciation of (i) my matrix of different objectives of high-end audio and (ii) my theory of sonic cues together go a long way towards mutual understanding from the outset of discussions, but few people are interested in using these tools. Interestingly these two foundational concepts attract a lot more appreciation on short-form Facebook audio groups than they do here on our long-form on-line forum.

 

[Ron Resnick]

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Here is the discussion:


















Ok. Your uncertainty makes my point. 'Colored' is not a good word because it is ambiguous.

Much of the froo-froo that happens in audio discussion here (and elsewhere) comes from people having different meanings for different terminologies and each party not realising that. Witness a 14 page thread on the word 'Resolution' or a 4 page thread on the word 'Transparency'. Ensuing discussions attempt to work out what audio words mean but typically end up with a bunch of different opinions and no conclusion for going forward.

(Sidebar: Inevitably a few who enjoy confusion and argument whine about vocabulary dictatorship. The aim at codification of meaning is in pursuit of reducing confusion and argument so that discussion can proceed without getting bogged down in word meaning. But we will never rid ourselves of the self-righteous who like to say such things as 'vocabulary dictatorship' but otherwise do nothing to move the discussion forward.)

When you say "I guess it could mean a tonal anomaly or a tonal imbalance or a homogenization." then my suggestion is to use "tonaly anomaly" or use "homogenization" when that is what you mean. Be explicit. If I had answered your question "If there is no neutral, then against what standard is "colored" evaluated?" then I would either embrace the ambiguity (compounding it) or launch into a discussion of word meanings. Since you acknowledge uncertainty about the meaning of 'colored' whatever answer I gave may not be satisfactory to you.

When I said "There is no neutral." in response to your question about Lamm amp coloration, I meant there is no sound or music without tonality -- taking 'color' as tone color. Yes, it may have been a provocative answer. I don't use the word 'colored' to mean 'homogenized'. I felt the interchange with bonzo cleared things up (a post you liked, but maybe not enough :-o ) .

Both 'neutral' and 'colored' are ambiguous.

The less fungible the audiophile words, the more explicit one is, the better. But we can still argue about other things.

Please argue with Kedar the definition of "colored." As I said at the outset, I don't use the word "colored" to describe things.

Peter uses "colored" to describe things, which is why I was targeting his implicit use of "neutral" in unavoidable contrast with colored (although Peter stubbornly refused to acknowledge this).

 

[bonzo75]

I agree that audiophiles seem more interested "in endless tit for tat point making" and in hunting for ways to disagree and to drive wedges between differing views, rather than in seeking to reconcile differing views and bridge divides in understanding (especially bonzo75 and microstrip, in my opinion).


Here I have tried. An appreciation of (i) my matrix of different objectives of high-end audio and (ii) my theory of sonic cues together go a long way towards mutual understanding from the outset of discussions, but few people are interested in using these tools. Interestingly these two foundational concepts attract a lot more appreciation on short-form Facebook audio groups than they do here on our long-form on-line forum.

Especially all threads you start including this one

 

[PeterA]

It is sad that you find listening to your system a sterile experience.

Perhaps for some, high end audio gear is not worth the money.

I think an interesting parallel discussion might be as we upgraded our gear over the years at what point did the increased cost not become worth the performance gains.

 

[ssfas]

It is sad that you find listening to your system a sterile experience.

I have a lovely listening room, beautifully designed and furnished, but I sit on my own in front of a pair of speakers. Going to a live gig has the anticipation and adrenaline rush before the first note it’s heard. Half the fun of Ronnie Scott’s is their cocktail menu and we often have dinner there during the show. The gig venue above does a Caribbean buffet and bar. Going there again next week for a Roy Ayres tribute show. Going to Covent Garden, which we do a lot, is always a thrill. The sterility is as much that you know what you’re going to hear, whereas at a gig or show often you have little idea. First and foremost, there is an audience, and ask any performer and a large part of a show is the interaction between the performer and the audience.

So hifi may be enjoyable, and I wouldn’t spend as much time listening if it wasn’t, but it is incredibly sterile compared to live music.

 

[PeterA]

Especially all threads you start including this one

Ron is in the business of creating content just like all other influencers. He starts these threads and then provokes discussions, which often turn into arguments. Why would he continue to badger me about the concept of neutral if he thinks it’s specious? And then he has a discussion about the word colored which he himself doesn’t even use. It’s all for creating content and conflict which gets eyeballs on his site. Let’s get real. He sets up polemics.

 

[bonzo75]

Ron is in the business of creating content just like all other influencers. He starts these threads and then provokes discussions, which often turn into arguments. Why would he continue to badger me about the concept of neutral if he thinks it’s specious? And then he has a discussion about the word colored which he himself doesn’t even use. It’s all for creating content and conflict which gets eyeballs on his site. Let’s get real. He sets up polemics.

Completely agree, then trolls participants for arguing. To be fair to him, he is unable to contribute much to the discussion given his level of exposure, audition music, and system

 

[Lagonda]

95% of our customers are not registered in any forum and have no interest in registering anywhere. Therefore, I would rather consider this claim as a small joke.

He is Dutch, he has to explain his jokes !

 

[Atmasphere]

My problem with headphones, despite their transparency, is that in your head sensation, and the lack of feeling the energy in the room. This is where a good system can really shine.

Yup! The tactile feel of musical energy is missing with headphones. I much prefer to use speakers on that account.

You can read about audiophiles having "strong emotional responses" to music on audio forums all the time, to a point where it gets tedious.

The reality, however, is that these say very little about the system. Music can trigger those personal, individual, responses whether you listen to a high end system or a bluetooth speaker.

Music is processed by the limbic system in the brain. When things go awry, the brain moves the processing to the cerebral cortex, at which point a lot of the emotional impact is lost. It is the goal of the designer (well, my goal anyway) to keep the processing in the limbic system. To do that the equipment must not present with some sort of anomaly that takes you out of the music.

BTW when we are doing comparisons, music is usually being processed in the cerebral cortex.

What does ANY of this have to do with high end gear being worth the money?

Put simply, inexpensive equipment can do what we are talking about if designed and set up properly, and if designed and set up properly, equipment which might be expensive because the designer intended an all-out assault in state of the art can do it even better.

 

[thedudeabides]

If I were someone who is genuinely interested in the OP's topic (which I am) and read all this useless, irrelevant food throwing cafeteria banter, I would conclude why bother.

 

[PeterA]

In general, I think the answer to the question of the thread is a resounding NO. However, in specific examples, those chosen by their owners to live with in the pursuit of more fully enjoying their music collections, the answer is probably YES.

It’s a very awkward question because it is asking individuals to presume they understand what others value. The OP posted someone else’s video. There has not been much discussion about that video.

 

[hopkins]

Or while listening to a car radio. But there is a reason most of us here go beyond that. Why do you think that is?

Because we listen to the sound, not only to the music.

 

[JiminGa]

Yup! The tactile feel of musical energy is missing with headphones. I much prefer to use speakers on that account.

Music is processed by the limbic system in the brain. When things go awry, the brain moves the processing to the cerebral cortex, at which point a lot of the emotional impact is lost. It is the goal of the designer (well, my goal anyway) to keep the processing in the limbic system. To do that the equipment must not present with some sort of anomaly that takes you out of the music.

BTW when we are doing comparisons, music is usually being processed in the cerebral cortex.

Put simply, inexpensive equipment can do what we are talking about if designed and set up properly, and if designed and set up properly, equipment which might be expensive because the designer intended an all-out assault in state of the art can do it even better.

Interesting. Music is actually processed in different parts of the brain depending upon what it actually is. Music has a very broad definition. Experienced musicians have different parts of their brains light up on PET scans when listening to Jazz than when listening to classical. My guess is that it’s much deeper than that when sounds elicit emotions as opposed to professionals analyzing and “thinking “ about the music when they hear it. Whatever gets you closer to what YOU want is worth it to you and you alone. No justification to me or anyone else is necessary. Head phones, transistor radio, 2+ million dollar rig. It up to you to decide.