Is High End Audio Gear Worth the Money?

[Mike Lavigne]

Or while listening to a car radio. But there is a reason most of us here go beyond that. Why do you think that is?

not just one thing, but a number of things all falling into place.

because at some point in our life, we found considerable pleasure from focused listening to reproduced music, and also we found that the better more real it sounded the more it touched a place in our psyche.

that combined with just how much music mattered to us, which could have been a generational thing such as how baby boomers happened to reach puberty at the same time as pop/rock became a cultural giant defining a generation as never before or since. the music was us. it was a shared experiential thing we identified with. musical creative peaks pushed us quite a bit to find a connection that has never left us.

crazy media all around us was not yet so prevalent in our youths. no internet or streaming video, always connected. we could be off away and really develop our relationship with reproduced music. fewer distractions then. and no ipads to trivialize music access. you had to pursue it to some degree. it was not all around is with no effort like now.

and also it became a habit like drugs. and then there is the whole 'pretty thing' part of just liking the hobby, the collecting and the private times 'zen' part in our busy lives. a personal space thing.

 

[andromedaaudio]

95% of our customers are not registered in any forum and have no interest in registering anywhere. Therefore, I would rather consider this claim as a small joke.

If you know me a little you d know i don t count horns as HiFI lol

 

[Elliot G.]

not just one thing, but a number of things all falling into place.

because at some point in our life, we found considerable pleasure from focused listening to reproduced music, and also we found that the better more real it sounded the more it touched a place in our psyche.

that combined with just how much music mattered to us, which could have been a generational thing such as how baby boomers happened to reach puberty at the same time as pop/rock became a cultural giant defining a generation as never before or since. the music was us. it was a shared experiential thing we identified with. musical creative peaks pushed us quite a bit to find a connection that has never left us.

crazy media all around us was not yet so prevalent in our youths. no internet or streaming video, always connected. we could be off away and really develop our relationship with reproduced music. fewer distractions then. and no ipads to trivialize music access. you had to pursue it to some degree. it was not all around is with no effort like now.

and also it became a habit like drugs. and then there is the whole 'pretty thing' part of just liking the hobby, the collecting and the private times 'zen' part in our busy lives. a personal space thing.

we all got "turned on" by music which was essential to us growing up. We did not have all the distractions like you mentioned, no phones, beepers, ipads, walkmen etc. We listened to FM radio, went to the record stores and stereo stores and became "experienced". Audio is an experience and that is the major reason most got involved. The Industry has lost that special engagement and now forgot how to make great impressions other than the price tag IMO.

 

[AudioHR]

if it means nothing then as a whole its all being done wrong. There is a race to the bottom in audio where only the price counts and it is that race that has caused IMO the very issues that you speak about. That is not however how I approach my business, my customers and my own system.
I think that lots of audiophiles say they know how and some probably do but most do not. I don't believe that most dealers can either however part of the fault comes from the buyers who either won't let them set them up or want deep deals so the dealer is not going to do the work.

I ask this are you prepared and willing to pay someone for this service? IMO its not really part of buying a box anymore than a supermarket is supposed to cook your meal. Installation and set up are skills that are learned and practiced by some and they can do it if they are hired and allowed to do such.
I can promise you that there are people that can make your system do things you can't. So before you buy that next box maybe its time to invest in that I believe its well worth your while.

I haven't got to the end of this thread yet but have to comment.

Jeff in his video talked at various points about "optimization". I think this is critical to the conversation. To his point I have heard some very expensive and well regarded equipment at say the Munich show that would not make me want to by it, even if I could afford it. Still I would like to think that if I heard these components in a fully optimized environment I would be really impressed.

Elliot I really agree with you and not just at the very high end. Proper installation and setup is vitally important to get the best out of whatever your system is, no matter what it costs.

I can understand a consumer buying a lifestyle stereo setup that they need to fit into their living room not wanting to commit to optimizing what they have. It wasn't their intention in the first place to have incredible sound. For those in this forum and really anyone who has more serious expectations for how musical and real their system might sound optimization is a must! Depending on our means most of us will have to be realistic about our expectations but all of us should want to get the best out of what we have.

I might add that for those that are spending the mega bucks I do hope that as Jeff implies you have a dedicated space with dimensions that support the likely substantial speakers that you have. If you don't I would say you are just fooling yourself.

Having been into this for years I think I am pretty good at optimizing the sound in my room. To be honest it's been fun to experiment and build on my knowledge and skills. Still as Elliot says " there are people that can make your system do what you can't ". Despite my pride I have little doubt that is true, my only hesitation is finding the proper person.

 

[Iamrael]

Part of the problem is that the masses don’t know what to expect and have no idea what they’re missing.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Part of the problem is that the masses don’t know what to expect and have no idea what they’re missing.

exposure to the concept of 'better sound' was one factor in the mid 60's to mid 80's in college dorm rooms. everyone got that exposure. it was a 'thing' everyone did and valued.

these days musical consumption is trivial and fragmented so not viewed as an 'EVENT'. pre-teens can already have all the music they can even think about. so why investigate better sound? and the music is relatively not a huge part of the culture. too much competition for mind space.

how many opportunities do people have these days to hear good sound? under the radar.

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

and the ranting continues..........
if the time spent on ranting were used to experiment and tweak and explore, the ranters would probably have a far better sounding system and a load of experience too.....

 

[the sound of Tao]

I agree that audiophiles seem more interested "in endless tit for tat point making" and in hunting for ways to disagree and to drive wedges between differing views, rather than in seeking to reconcile differing views and bridge divides in understanding (especially bonzo75 and microstrip, in my opinion).


Here I have tried. An appreciation of (i) my matrix of different objectives of high-end audio and (ii) my theory of sonic cues together go a long way towards mutual understanding from the outset of discussions, but few people are interested in using these tools. Interestingly these two foundational concepts attract a lot more appreciation on short-form Facebook audio groups than they do here on our long-form on-line forum.

I also feel it is important to understand the way of it and the why of it… looking at models of listening help make up for the fact that there are no known perceptual laws of listening available to us currently.

It is important for us not just to understand our specific values and to define and refine our own system goals but also how all our moment to moment objectives are constantly interacting with and creating differences in our moment to moment perceptions. We aren’t linear and we aren’t steady state.

Understanding the interaction between our objectives and how that changes our perception is potentially a way to understand the real validity of the divisions in preferences in the pursuit of the high end of audio performance.

Looking at fixing the system or the room is way more immediate and accessible a pathway than dipping or deep diving into the numinous and trying to unravel the vagaries of our perception… but I also feel that understanding perceptual objectives is potentially a rich untapped vein in increasing high end performance for us. Managing our expectations to work with our goals.

Understanding preferential divides and modes of perception is just not as immediately sexy as talking gear… we all rightly love the gear but as a place for pursuing high end performance understanding the plasticity of our perception remains a fairly unexplored resource.

Some like to say there is a good understanding of the role of psychoacoustics in audio but current science doesn’t agree on that at all. We are a fantastic database and research tool for understanding perception because of our obsession and decades of constant focus of the high end experience. Instead we loop about the same old simple base arguments on things that are interesting and important to understand but that some of it has maybe just become a slippery slope of misdirect.

 

[ssfas]

exposure to the concept of 'better sound' was one factor in the mid 60's to mid 80's in college dorm rooms. everyone got that exposure. it was a 'thing' everyone did and valued.

these days musical consumption is trivial and fragmented so not viewed as an 'EVENT'. pre-teens can already have all the music they can even think about. so why investigate better sound? and the music is relatively not a huge part of the culture. too much competition for mind space.

how many opportunities do people have these days to hear good sound? under the radar.

I really don’t understand your post at all. I don’t know where you went to university, but in my experience in the 1980s the one thing everyone did and valued wasn’t listening to hi-fi.

My kids are 24 and 28 and for years music has been a big part of their culture. From my elder son, it’s a major part of his life. His Glastonbury gang has been going to festivals and gigs on a regular basis since they were 15.

Certainly in the UK, if you have an interest in hi-fi, you don’t really have to go very far to to listen to systems at whatever budget interests you. it certainly helped me because I was able to listen to systems at all sort of price points, several well over $500,000, and I have the satisfaction in knowing that with my much more modestly price system I’m really not missing out.

Meanwhile, tonight‘s concert was a sensation. Igor Levit and his protege, Lukas Sternath. They each played a Prokofiev sonata, Sternath’s no 7 was a taste of things to come. Then Shostakovich’s transcription for two pianos of his 10th symphony. I’ve never heard it before and I’m not aware of any recordings. It was magnificent and tremendously well received.

 

[Rexp]

I have a lovely listening room, beautifully designed and furnished, but I sit on my own in front of a pair of speakers. Going to a live gig has the anticipation and adrenaline rush before the first note it’s heard. Half the fun of Ronnie Scott’s is their cocktail menu and we often have dinner there during the show. The gig venue above does a Caribbean buffet and bar. Going there again next week for a Roy Ayres tribute show. Going to Covent Garden, which we do a lot, is always a thrill. The sterility is as much that you know what you’re going to hear, whereas at a gig or show often you have little idea. First and foremost, there is an audience, and ask any performer and a large part of a show is the interaction between the performer and the audience.

So hifi may be enjoyable, and I wouldn’t spend as much time listening if it wasn’t, but it is incredibly sterile compared to live music.

Ronnie Scotts is indeed fun, I heard Kenny Garret there who is one of the better Coltrane wannabes, it was exciting but it was not the thrilling, awe inspiring roller coaster ride I get from listening to Coltrane on a well sorted system at home where I'm locked into the music, oblivious to my surroundings.

 

[Rexp]

How one rates live music versus listening at home seems to be an interesting differential related to the value one puts on high-end audiio.

 

[Hi-FiGuy]

who is making that choice? I've never met him. People who can afford buy what they want. I in 50 plus years ever had someone say they were choosing between a car and an audio system. You can find flaw in anything including a Ferrari

one thing I can say and I worked for Ferrari for two years is none of the owners tried setting up the cars themselves LOL

As someone who worked for Scuderia Ferrari for years there are plenty of flaws in Ferraris...that being said with the exception of the few 360 and 430 (the affordable Ferraris to the common person) owners that tweek them a couple times on their own, then find someone to do it after that, you are correct, they don't fiddle with them at all, they drive them.
There is a local tuner here that has been doing things to a 458 and that thing is a bad bad machine!

 

[Hi-FiGuy]

also the percentage of new Ferrari's that get used to their performance potential is much lower than uber hifi systems. hifi systems are acquired to be listened to, not as garage queens, posers, or investments. yes; some do 'track' their cars, but less than half. there are many many reasons to own a Ferrari. much, much less so for hifi.

observe the average milage on a used 2-5-7 year old Ferrari. under 3000 miles. many under 1500 miles. the ones that get driven are not the one's for sale.

so while there are common motivations involved in both, they are really separate realms. and not comparable.

In Ferrari speak, 3000 miles is a high mileage car and the resale value is destroyed and that's a shame because they are made to be driven. We had a client that had the car towed in and we were not allowed to drive it around the block, even for a drivability concern.

 

[Hi-FiGuy]

consider that as far as suspension, the greatest suspension travel and compliance typically also comes with a reduction in precision and stability. on my 2" lifted Jeep Wrangler Rubicon there is a switch on the dashboard that disconnects the front and rear sway bars, and allows a ridiculous amount of wheel travel for rock climbing. there is also a setting which allows for 'creep' mode, a 2mph steady speed for creeping over large rocks.....where your foot on the gas pedal would reduce control. i've only used these features on one trail so far, and they allow for out of the world abilities in terms of what the Jeep can do without breaking a sweat.

Pet peeve of mine, silly to most, but not to me, it's an anti-sway bar.

 

[PYP]

I really don’t understand your post at all. I don’t know where you went to university, but in my experience in the 1980s the one thing everyone did and valued wasn’t listening to hi-fi.

My kids are 24 and 28 and for years music has been a big part of their culture. From my elder son, it’s a major part of his life. His Glastonbury gang has been going to festivals and gigs on a regular basis since they were 15.

Certainly in the UK, if you have an interest in hi-fi, you don’t really have to go very far to to listen to systems at whatever budget interests you. it certainly helped me because I was able to listen to systems at all sort of price points, several well over $500,000, and I have the satisfaction in knowing that with my much more modestly price system I’m really not missing out.

Meanwhile, tonight‘s concert was a sensation. Igor Levit and his protege, Lukas Sternath. They each played a Prokofiev sonata, Sternath’s no 7 was a taste of things to come. Then Shostakovich’s transcription for two pianos of his 10th symphony. I’ve never heard it before and I’m not aware of any recordings. It was magnificent and tremendously well received.View attachment 148456

these highfalutin events are great, but can they really compete with an outdoor jazz concert? Sharing a porta potty with the rest of humanity, fighting the cobwebs, slippery floor and the aroma in pitch black. Exiting with a slam of the flimsy door and hoping the hand sanitizer station has water. Then normalizing ones nostrils with the sweet smell of weed. Man, that is living. Can high-end gear match that?

 

[AudioHR]

Usually with a test LP or CD that demonstrates in-phase and out-of-phase. Use them, listen, and reverse the speaker leads, if you need to.

True enough.

It seems to me that there have been some speaker designs that have some drivers out of phase with the others. Or was this some kind of audiophile nightmare I was having.

 

[AudioHR]

Is high-end gear worth the money?

For the audiophile who believes the higher the cost, the higher their status within the community, then yes, of course it is worth the money. Like having HRH in front your name, having the more expensive system gives them a sense of authority, that whatever they write in this thread will be seen as having greater value than what is written by those with less expensive systems. Being able to afford so much on a hobby, they believe, tells the world they are a success, they’ve made it. And, whether or not the most expensive components and cables sound 100 times better than less expensive components, you’ll have a very hard time convincing them they don’t. They will never believe their expenditure might not have been really worth it, to find that out I would suggest interviewing their widows afterwards.

I am not saying that one can put together a world-class system with budget equipment. But you don’t need to buy the most expensive equipment to get great sound, perhaps the best sound in your experience (biased? who among us hasn’t come home from a hi-fi show thinking there wasn’t a single system there that sounded better than theirs?).

Sometimes you have to pay a lot to get the “right” component. Perhaps you can’t build your own amp, turntable, or speakers. Perhaps you can’t find what you want to modify or can’t find ‘that’ particular component on the used market. You will then have to pay retail and at this level retail isn’t cheap, but not necessarily the most expensive. Even if you are all thumbs and lack the technical skills and equipment to “roll yer own”, you can still attain world-class by paying someone who is able to modify used starting points (like hiring Ray at Classic Turntable Company to turn an old Garrard 301/401 into one of his CTC Reference turntables, and building (or having someone build) a great plinth, for beauty, function or both (i.e. using slate, or Panzerholtz).

So the above makes me a different type of audiophile, one who takes pride in the “belief” they constructed a world-class system for a fraction of the cost of those whose sound is at a similar level. Are there more expensive systems which sound better than mine? Undoubtably. Is that slight difference worth the much greater expense? That question is not mine to answer.

I think if we have enjoyed spending our time and money on putting together what we believe to be a superior system that is capable of exceptional sound we should be proud!

There are of course many roads to Rome, hopefully we enjoy the journey as much or more than reaching our proposed destination.

 

[ssfas]

these highfalutin events are great, but can they really compete with an outdoor jazz concert? Sharing a porta potty with the rest of humanity, fighting the cobwebs, slippery floor and the aroma in pitch black. Exiting with a slam of the flimsy door and hoping the hand sanitizer station has water. Then normalizing ones nostrils with the sweet smell of weed. Man, that is living. Can high-end gear match that?

I don’t need unsanitary conditions to enjoy music. I don’t really like jazz outdoors, unless it’s too hot to stay indoors. Memorable gigs include La Villette in Paris in 1991, my wife’s booked something there in July, not sure what. Personally I’ve never done drugs or smoked anything, and like clean restrooms (as Americans call them). Going to a program of Balanchine tonight at Covent Garden (Prodigal Son, Serenade, Symphony in C), ultra-clean toilets, more Russian music, and ballet doesn’t work at home.

 

[Amir]

there are people that can make your system do what you can't ". Despite my pride I have little doubt that is true, my only hesitation is finding the proper person.

I agree you the key is optimization.

My friend spend around one million dollar and the sound was not good. He called Stirling Trayle and ask him to place his speakers, now the sound is marvelous.

Smart audiophiles do not change gear before proper optimization

 

[hopkins]

Deleted.