Natural Sound

[OrigTweaker]

I was there from 1962 until 1979 when my family moved east. Sailing in the summer on Lake Geneva in WI. I think the city has changed a lot since then, but we had a great group of friends and found lots to do. Cheap Trick and Ginger Lynn are from Rockford.

I went to Jackson elementary school with Cheap Trick singer Joe Sundberg and then Guilford HS with the rest of them where I panned their first record, as Fuse, in a review for the student newspaper. Left for college in 1970, never to return.

 

[PeterA]

I went to Jackson elementary school with Cheap Trick singer Joe Sundberg and then Guilford HS with the rest of them where I panned their first record, as Fuse, in a review for the student newspaper. Left for college in 1970, never to return.

That is pretty cool. I never heard of Fuse. I left Rockford in 1979, senior year of highschool. I returned once to see some old friends and visit my old day school and house. I did enjoy my childhood there and still have a few good friends from those early days. My brother and his Rockford buddy have seen Cheap Trick about 50-60 times in concert.

 

[Thundersnow]

The goal of natural sound is to create in my listening room at home a similar listening experience to the one I have in the concert hall, jazz club, or chamber setting. The experience of listening to a live concert is about more than just the sound.

Forget about sneezes, smells, and the uncomfortable seats. The experience of listening to live music is about the sound that you hear through your ears and interpret with your brain. It is about the energy you feel hitting your body, washing over you and filling the hall or night club. It is about the emotion that the music evokes, the feelings, the memories, the excitement. It is about the beat, the rhythm, the flow and foot tapping. It is about the way the music makes you want to move. And it is about the sense of being present with the musicians playing their instruments in that moment. The experience is complete, all encompassing, and holistic. It is mind and body, not just what you hear.

The point is, the experience of listening to live music is much more than just the sound of the musicians playing their instruments. It is also the forming of the event in your mind that can then become a memory which will serve as a reference to that event, and that can be used to judge the quality of the listening experience you have at home. It is more complex thing than just the sound reaching your ears.

At home sitting in my listening room, I want to experience all of those things I mention above. I want to hear a sound that is similar to that of an actual violin. I want to feel the energy coming off of the cello or brass, or timpani. I want the emotion evoked by the soprano or clarinetist on the recording. I want the sense of presence of those musicians being in front of me in the space captured on the recording. I want all of that at home. It is an elusive quest, but that is the target. It is much more than just the absolute sound.

Here are a couple of new videos after some tweaks to my speaker set up. The YouTube videos do not capture what I hear at home, but they give a hint that may help to illustrate what I am trying to describe.

Saint Saens, Danse Macabre:

Britten's Violin Concerto, Ida Haendel:

I have to say, every time I hear this system it impresses me how well it reproduces these classical pieces. Enjoy.

 

[PeterA]

I have to say, every time I hear this system it impresses me how well it reproduces these classical pieces. Enjoy.

Thank you Thundersnow. I appreciate the kind comments.

 

[PeterA]

I had an interesting exchange this morning in another thread with @mtemur. We discussed thread type, length, tension, and also separate stands for motor and turntable.

The discussion prompted me to try a new location for my turntable motor, closer to the turntable base. The argument is for reducing wow and flutter. Of course it also shortens the length of the thread connecting the motor pulley to the platter.

Below is a photograph showing my temporary solution. This DYI stand is temporary. I need to make one that is more solid and stable. My listening impressions are positive. The new configuration results in more focus, and more solid and stable images. There is also slightly more foundation to the music. Instruments and singers seem more grounded in space. Overall, this results in a nice little uptick in performance. The sound is a bit more natural. Thank you mtemur for making the suggestion.

 

[djsina2]

Why did you move it further away to begin with? Seems like ddk’s design calls for it to be close, judging from other pictures.

 

[PeterA]

Why did you move it further away to begin with? Seems like ddk’s design calls for it to be close, judging from other pictures.

My rack does not isolate the two well enough from each other. Some small amount of vibration does seem to migrate across the top shelf of the main rack. I wanted to avoid over dampening the top shelf, but it seems there is some benefit from separating the motor from the turntable. Two steel plates helps but I learned I could take it further. One never knows these things unless he tries them. A lot depends on rack design and space. Some designs are more flexible than others. With my old SME turntable for instance, everything was fixed and there was little room for experimentation.

The AS 2000 turntable comes with both a non-stretch belt and a thread. The former is easier to set up, but the latter can sound better with some effort. The tension and torque are also adjustable. There is room for user experiments to fine tune the sound if the end user wants to put in the effort.

 

[andromedaaudio]

The new configuration results in more focus, and more solid and stable images. There is also slightly more foundation to the music. Instruments and singers seem more grounded in space. Overall, this results in a nice little uptick in performance. The sound is a bit more natural

Good for you peter .

You sure you didnt copy paste this from the Absolute Sound lol

 

[PeterA]

Good for you peter .

You sure you didnt copy paste this from the Absolute Sound lol

Andro, I would have simply written that the improvements result in a more natural presentation, but then you would have asked me what I mean, so I added language to help. Emoji.

 

[hopkins]

Andro, I would have simply written that the improvements result in a more natural presentation, but then you would have asked me what I mean, so I added language to help. Emoji.

Getting dangerously close to a natural sound...

 

[Kingrex]

Outside DDK, who else has a world class horn system that has a open door for visitors.
I would love to hear a good horn system again. Its been a while. I think I forgot what one sounds like. As a reference to where my setup is at.

 

[Atmasphere]

I think I forgot what one sounds like.

Just so you know, they sound just fine, a lot like any other great speaker.

 

[PeterA]

I installed a duplicate vintage Ortofon cartridge on my second SME 3012R tonearm last weekend. I set up the two arm/cartridge combinations to sound very close to each other, and they do despite one using the vintage Ortofon SUT into the MM input and the other using the internal SUT on my Lamm LP1 phono stage. I followed the set up method that David Karmeli taught me and used the LP he supplied to fine tune by ear.

Once satisfied with the results, I used a digital scale to measure LP weight. The set up LP is 180g. I checked some random LPs in my listening room and they measured 120, 135, 150, and 180g. Fellow WBF member MAXPWR sent me the chart copied below comparing record weight with thickness. As those who have read about DDK's method for arm height adjustment know, David uses standard playing cards stacked and placed between the bottom of the arm base and the locking collar lower on the post. A standard playing card is 0.2mm thick. This corresponds roughly with a thickness difference between 160g and 180g LPs.

Some may think that a standard playing card is too course of an adjustment, but remember, Michael Fremer noted that one must raise a typical 9" arm 4.0mm to achieve a difference of 1 degree in SRA. He also recommends a 92 degree SRA which I ignore. A playing card is 1/20th of that, or 1/20th of 1 degree. It is even less for a 12" tonearm because of the extra length. Fine tuning beyond that 1/20th of a degree can be done with very slight changes in VTF, or by using small even thinner pieces of paper instead of playing cards. All this for the SME 3012R. Other arms have different methods.

I optimized the set up of both identical arm/cartridge combinations for that 180g LP by listening for the most natural presentation. I am now adjusting one of the two arms for thinner LPs with promising results. Lowering the arm by two (2) playing cards, or 0.4mm, corresponds with a record weight of 145g. Three (3) cards is roughly a 130g LP. I plan to adjust by ear, not just by following the chart, but it seems to be a nice ballpark and seems to get one pretty close, once a correct height is determined with a record of known weight.

There are other factors involved. Cutting angle varies. Groove thickness might be a factor too, though I do not know. Given my results so far, I think I will be using two identical arm/cartridge combinations on my table for a while, set up for thicker (180g) and thinner (140-150g) records. If I find I have more records in the 110-120g range, I may set the second arm up for that thickness. I may even adjust one card up or down for the two different thinner record weights. I suppose I could add a third arm with my third Ortofon, but I would likely use a third arm for a different cartridge.

I definitely hear an improvement in the presentation with different set ups for different record thicknesses. The presentation sounds clearer, more focused, more lively and full of energy, timbre is more believable, nuance and ambiance are improved, and overall, it just sounds more correct or natural when adjusted for the specific LP weight being played. I wish it were not so, but I hear it clearly. The result is a similar quality of presentation on a variety of records. I have yet to do a direct comparison between a thick and thin LP of the same recording, though even there, the remastering will change the way it sounds.

If I decide to reinstall one of my Colibris, it will likely be for thinner LPs because most of my large scale classical LPs are thin and they benefit from the slightly greater resolution of the Colibris, but that is for later. Now I am simply enjoying two arms with the Ortofon, one optimized for thick records, and one for thin records.

In my old system, I used to adjust arm height for each record. That was a lot of work. I think having two arms set up for thicker and thinner records is a nice solution to the issue of varying thicknesses. A greater variety of records now sound better on my system. Unfortunately, the lack of standardization in record thickness, creates a problem for those of us who want to optimize arm set up for the best presentation in our rooms.

LP thickness chart:

 

[Atmasphere]

There are tonearms that allow for the VTA to be repeatably and precisely adjusted on the fly. Seems to me this would be easier than using two arms?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

There are tonearms that allow for the VTA to be repeatably and precisely adjusted on the fly. Seems to me this would be easier than using two arms?

i'm not an engineer. but if you play 20 or 30 records a week, and adjust your VTA every 3rd record, that is a lot of loosening and tightening and handling your tonearm. this frequent messing with cannot help the mechanical solidity of the arm over time.

of course; there is posting about this constant changing, and there is actually the changing, and they can be different things. we don't know.

my question to you Ralph as a technical person is what do you think about lots of listening and resulting frequent changing VTA? would there be a price to pay in solidity? or really no issue at all and nothing to worry about?

 

[Atmasphere]

i'm not an engineer. but if you play 20 or 30 records a week, and adjust your VTA every 3rd record, that is a lot of loosening and tightening and handling your tonearm. this frequent messing with cannot help the mechanical solidity of the arm over time.

of course; there is posting about this constant changing, and there is actually the changing, and they can be different things. we don't know.

my question to you Ralph as a technical person is what do you think about lots of listening and resulting frequent changing VTA? would there be a price to pay in solidity? or really no issue at all and nothing to worry about?

The two arms I'm thinking of, the Triplanar and the Technics arm found on the SL1200G, have no worries with mechanical solidarity in this regard. They are designed with this in mind so its simply not an issue. You can dial them in quite easily in a matter of a few seconds.

 

[microstrip]

The two arms I'm thinking of, the Triplanar and the Technics arm found on the SL1200G, have no worries with mechanical solidarity in this regard. They are designed with this in mind so its simply not an issue. You can dial them in quite easily in a matter of a few seconds.

The same for the Graham Phantom - as long as you do not test arm solidity with an hammer!

 

[bonzo75]

The same for the Graham Phantom - as long as you do not test arm solidity with an hammer!

Quite a poor sounding arm compared to many including 3012r, FR64s, Ikeda, all considerably cheaper

 

[PeterA]

There are tonearms that allow for the VTA to be repeatably and precisely adjusted on the fly. Seems to me this would be easier than using two arms?

This argues for the value of adjusting for individual recordings to optimize the presentation. I appreciate that approach, and the easier it is to do it, the better.

 

[Atmasphere]

This argues for the value of adjusting for individual recordings to optimize the presentation. I appreciate that approach, and the easier it is to do it, the better.

The thing is, you have to document what the correct setting is, which is more than just the thickness of the LP. The cutting angle is also an issue, which is an approximation of 92 degrees since a good mastering engineer will set the actual cutting angle for lowest noise rather than simply 92 degrees.