Natural Sound

[DaveC]

As I had suggested, a discussion about "separation of instruments" might well be controversial. These last few pages show that. I hear more separation of instruments from some playback systems, often much more, than I hear this quality from live music. Many of the recent posts do not really address that point but rather attempt to explain why recordings or systems might enhance this effect. Some of us do indeed compare live music to reproduced music as I did here with my recent experience listening to a live string trio in a nice hall. It seems others do not value such comparisons and seem to prefer enjoying each experience for its own merits and qualities. That is fine too. They are different experiences. Some of us attempt to make them more similar than different.

Oh yeah, on the subject of imaging, I have noticed some interesting behavior.... I don't fully understand it, but maybe some other folks here have ideas. If you do, I'm open to hearing theories.

With interconnect cables, wire shape can have a massive effect on image size and presentation. However, this effect varies in degree depending on, as far as I can tell, the speaker and maybe the amp. Speakers that use hard cone drivers, like Accuton, and powerful SS amps exhibit this to the greatest degree while a single driver/set seems least affected.

Basically, foil type ic cables result in larger images, to such a degree it can sound larger than life... vocals come from giants and violins are the size of a stand-up basses. Images run together and there's no "air". I used to sell a UPOCC silver ribbon interconnect, it has some significant advantages like low capacitance, but it also produced larger images, though not nearly as large as foil. The effect ranges from very subtle to a moderate difference... not larger than life like foil, but more diffuse than round wire. The issue with this is image size should vary by recording, foil and ribbon ic cables add their own character in terms of image size. Round wire allows for smaller images, maybe too small in some recordings, but it also makes large images if the recording calls for it. Some people really enjoyed the larger images of ribbon or foil cables as it does in some cases make the recording sound more like my recollection of live music, but others did not... this is the issue with colorations, they are far more subject to personal preference vs a purely neutral product. And colorations always seem to reduce clarity and resolution in some way.

It sounds like the effect might be a result of some phase shift or distortion, I honestly haven't been able to study this all that much yet, but I did go back to a round-wire cable whose design was informed by the ribbon, so it's a nice improvement. I also have one that uses no synthetics in the insulation or jacket in order to reduce one type of noise. You might even like it, it's 100% natural.

 

[PeterA]

Oh yeah, on the subject of imaging, I have noticed some interesting behavior.... I don't fully understand it, but maybe some other folks here have ideas. If you do, I'm open to hearing theories.

With interconnect cables, wire shape can have a massive effect on image size and presentation. However, this effect varies in degree depending on, as far as I can tell, the speaker and maybe the amp. Speakers that use hard cone drivers, like Accuton, and powerful SS amps exhibit this to the greatest degree while a single driver/set seems least affected.

Basically, foil type ic cables result in larger images, to such a degree it can sound larger than life... vocals come from giants and violins are the size of a stand-up basses. Images run together and there's no "air". I used to sell a UPOCC silver ribbon interconnect, it has some significant advantages like low capacitance, but it also produced larger images, though not nearly as large as foil. The effect ranges from very subtle to a moderate difference... not larger than life like foil, but more diffuse than round wire. The issue with this is image size should vary by recording, foil and ribbon ic cables add their own character in terms of image size. Round wire allows for smaller images, maybe too small in some recordings, but it also makes large images if the recording calls for it. Some people really enjoyed the larger images of ribbon or foil cables as it does in some cases make the recording sound more like my recollection of live music, but others did not... this is the issue with colorations, they are far more subject to personal preference vs a purely neutral product. And colorations always seem to reduce clarity and resolution in some way.

It sounds like the effect might be a result of some phase shift or distortion, I honestly haven't been able to study this all that much yet, but I did go back to a round-wire cable whose design was informed by the ribbon, so it's a nice improvement. I also have one that uses no synthetics in the insulation or jacket in order to reduce one type of noise. You might even like it, it's 100% natural.

I’m very happy with my wires and cords. They do not seem to enhance or create effects. They’re a big improvement over all of my previous alternatives.

 

[PeterA]

I heard the Racquet Club had to shut down because all the staff got deported.

I don’t think you understand much about natural sound or how some of these clubs operate.

 

[Argonaut]

With interconnect cables, wire shape can have a massive effect on image size and presentation. However, this effect varies in degree depending on, as far as I can tell, the speaker and maybe the amp. Speakers that use hard cone drivers, like Accuton, and powerful SS amps exhibit this to the greatest degree while a single driver/set seems least affected.

Basically, foil type ic cables result in larger images, to such a degree it can sound larger than life... vocals come from giants and violins are the size of a stand-up basses. Images run together and there's no "air".

I concur with this Dave , However I did find , more often than not , that foil and ribbon types tended to work well on transducers who’s topology presented a tough load to the amplifier(s) particularly Planars and Dynamic drivers down in the 80’s .
It is interesting to note that whilst playing around with such combinations of transducers , cables and listening position one could extend the projection of the audio image out and beyond the physical plane of the system quite easily , to the point where one would perceive to be seated in an almost 3D sound effect bubble … which invariably induced an element of the ‘larger than life’ instruments and vocals phenomenon.

 

[microstrip]

Your constant condescension is remarkable. Winking simple amplifies it. It seems to be your nature.

It seems your lack of knowledge and interest in understanding stereo makes you avoid any challenging subject. Decca is known to use a different orchestral disposition in their recordings form the typically used in american orchestras.

It is why I was joking with you. In fact, the Decca golden age recordings are a challenge to "natural" sound - they are known to be engineered for a better stereo enjoyment, not for a facsimile of the typical orchestra.

 

[Al M.]

It seems your lack of knowledge and interest in understanding stereo makes you avoid any challenging subject. Decca is known to use a different orchestral disposition in their recordings form the typically used in american orchestras.

It is why I was joking with you. In fact, the Decca golden age recordings are a challenge to "natural" sound - they are known to be engineered for a better stereo enjoyment, not for a facsimile of the typical orchestra.

What is more, the famous Decca Tree (microphone set-up) resulted in artificial spatial images.

The Wikipedia article,

Decca tree - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

cites John Pellowe, a former Decca engineer who said the following (emphases added):

"Well, we used to have a thing called a Decca Tree which was an arrangement where [at] the front edge of an orchestra about 3.2 metres up in the sky you would have a centre microphone roughly in line with the edge of the orchestra, and then maybe 2.5 feet back and 5 feet apart you would have 2 more forming a triangle, omnidirectional microphones. These were Neumann [M50] I'm talking about. [...]

"The centre microphone would be looking right into the centre of the strings in front of the conductor. You would have the conductor out front, then there would be a couple of desks of strings before you get to the woodwinds, and we would be looking right into the centre of those strings with that microphone. Then we would have the [rear] two, the left and right [mics on the] tree, which would again be looking right into the first violins and the celli, if that was the way the orchestra was set out, and then we would have a couple of outriggers which were maybe twenty feet apart 3.2 metres high again, 10 foot 6, and they again would be omnidirectional [...] 5 feet away from the edge of the orchestra 10'6" high looking down into the strings. [...] It was a very controversial method of recording, because when you have that many spaced omnidirectional microphones you lose a lot of the directional cues, which is absolutely right, the way that we would deal with that was we would pan the left and right tree half left and half right, and the outrigger mics we would pan hard left and right and we would paint an artificial stereo image. [...] The reason we did this and consistently did it and got away with it and got wonderful reviews and many many awards was simply that the localisation cues were missing, but the sound was fantastic.

"The reason that the Decca system survived as long as it did was that it was comparatively adaptable to different acoustic spaces. It was comparatively easy to auto-balance it and you didn't have to fiddle with it much, generally speaking in order to make it reliable.[3]"

***

In this link are images of the Decca Tree in action:

The Decca Sound: Secrets Of The Engineers

In 1984, Mike Gray helped assemble a discography of Decca’s classical releases, giving him access to their engineers and recording logs, and a valuable insight into how their records were made. He reveals the truth about the famous Decca tree and the creation of the label’s unique sound.

www.polymathperspective.com

 

[R Johnson]

That is wonderful. For us growing up two hours out of downtown Chicago, it was a real treat to go into the big city. Our small town of 100,000 people had its own symphony, but it did not compare to Chicago. The dress code was required at the Racquet Club where we played squash, rackets and court tennis and usually had dinner before the symphony. It’s a fabulous formal place steeped in tradition.

It seems that you might have grown up in Rockford. I grew up there and heard the local symphony a few times with my mother. They did reasonably well, but I had been thoroughly spoiled by the CSO.

 

[PeterA]

It seems that you might have grown up in Rockford. I grew up there and heard the local symphony a few times with my mother. They did reasonably well, but I had been thoroughly spoiled by the CSO.

I did indeed. Small world. We were on the north edge of town living between the rock River and some cornfields. It was a great place to grow up. I think the Rockford Symphony played in the Coronado theater. Impressive for such a small city.

 

[bonzo75]

Considering your fantastic auditory memory you must feel startled when you listen to Decca golden age Giulini recordings ...

Except most of the Giulini to be had is on DGG and Columbia, not Decca. There is a figaro and Mozart and Decca that are nice but not the main things if someone wants Giulini (or those performances by other conductors)

 

[Bobvin]

I concur with this Dave , However I did find , more often than not , that foil and ribbon types tended to work well on transducers who’s topology presented a tough load to the amplifier(s) particularly Planars and Dynamic drivers down in the 80’s .
It is interesting to note that whilst playing around with such combinations of transducers , cables and listening position one could extend the projection of the audio image out and beyond the physical plane of the system quite easily , to the point where one would perceive to be seated in an almost 3D sound effect bubble … which invariably induced an element of the ‘larger than life’ instruments and vocals phenomenon.

This is interesting to me… I have an LFD phono interconnect (it had a DIN connection on one end so I haven’t used it with the VYGER) that had different shaped wires and some were amorphous - and my impression of soundstage was the image went from a rectangular shape to more of a large hemisphere with improved layering and dimensionality bringing the soundfield forward rather than flat plane extending rearward. Overall a more immersive gestalt.