Is High End Audio Gear Worth the Money?

[Mike Lavigne]

What's an "audiophile cope"?

the verb 'cope' = (of a person) deal effectively with something difficult.
"his ability to cope with stress"

ultimately coping is rationalizing or navigating through a situation. sometimes an escape mechanism.

We spent about $500k extending, rebuilding and refurnishing our house, of which the electrical work was about $25k (excluding the sound/light system throughout the house). The acoustic work in the new music/reading room, previously the dining room, cost about $4k and the dedicated electrical spur about $300.

I went from a large non-dedicated living room with a broken single phase power supply on a ring main to a smaller dedicated treated room on its own phase from a new 3-phase power supply. Without changing any components, the improvement was dramatic.

Having a much better listening space made it worthwhile changing some of the hifi (the speakers have not changed). It would have been a waste of money and of no value to do those changes in the old listening space.

Good hifi is only worthwhile if you have a suitable place to use it. The electrical infrastructure is a significant part of that, especially in the UK where we use rings mains.

I was expressing a utilitarian approach. The "school of thought" I was referring to is called Hedonic Adaptation or the Hedonic Treadmill.

Sadly I have met people for whom hifi seemed to have overtaken their life, at the expense of their relationships. I had a client whose wife gave him an ultimatum to choose between motor racing (he ran his business to fund a GT team) and her, so he chose motor racing.

People attain various points of obsession and to the extent that an obsession dominates their lives it can dominate their finances. Audiophilia is often referred to as an addiction and the most destructive of addictions, like drugs and gambling, ruin the finances and lives of millions of people.

I met my wife though a shared love of dance. She was a ballet dancer. It's been an important part of our marriage. We have many other cultural interests as well. I don't mix aestheticism with spirituality (being religiously observant).

Someone could be obsessed with hifi, ballet or drugs and spend all their money on it. Our societal values consider some obsessions good, others bad. Personally I'm a believer of everything in moderation. Sometimes I wish I was more obsessive.

Of course hifi is of value to different people at different levels, including me. I'm not judging anyone, whether they only have a pair of headphones (like one of my kids) or have a house full of expensive hifi. Hedonic adaptation postulates that after a point spending more money only has transitory benefit, probably best illustrated by people who constantly "upgrade" cables.

Of course hifi is small change compared to cars. My father used to have an expensive car. He used to go on about how I would inherit it, as if I would enjoy it like he did. When he died, the first thing I did was sell his car (my sister needed the money) and used most of my share to buy a piece of Korean ceramic. It hangs in our kitchen gives me pleasure every day.

Without wishing to be controversial, to me high-end hifi seems to be just another transitory technology. It emerged in the 1950s (thanks to full frequency sound and to a lesser extent stereo). Due to population growth, globalisation and advances in technology (principally the change from physical to streamed data), I would expect to see 2-channel static hifi largely disappear in my lifetime. I mostly listen through ceiling speaker/ights and wireless headphones.

Pretty much the same here. Never discuss hifi with friends and my wife just doesn't want to know anything about it.

A good way to avoid objectifying hifi is to think of it from the purely practical viewpoint, no different from a dishwasher or tumble dryer. In my case it has to be as boring as possible (all black boxes, as few lights and knobs as possible) and it's stuck in a corner of the room in one stack. The speakers were chosen by my wife for their looks. Others may have a completely different view and want all the bells and whistles, Nagra or D'Agostino style, for which the outsides probably cost as much as the insides and likely double the price.

it seems as if your posts are really directed at yourself, and you are trying to make your case to yourself that you are right and righteous about your approach to hifi. you come to a hifi forum called 'What's Best' that obviously celebrates high performance hifi, and then you try to make the case that attempting to have the best hifi is misguided.......

and there is no right or wrong involved.

i hope it's working and you have achieved the goal and are in the spot you want to be in. and know we all are somewhat posting to ourselves to a degree making our own case that we are righteous and logical. we can relate. best wishes.

 

[John T]

Passion is the overriding variable. Worth to me has a number of meanings. If you are truly interested in something it is impossible (at least for me) not to dissect it, get involved, and attempt to understand it to the best of ones ability. To be captivated or to be inspired is such a gift. "In search of sacred Awe" Exploration to the maximum...

 

[ssfas]

so their relationship went off track.

I seem to remember the ultimatum came after he had a high-speed crash at the Nurburgring. When we talk about whether expensive Audio provides value, I suppose we should factor in the non-monetary impact it has on the value of our relationship relationships.

 

[bonzo75]

Neurologists recommend audiophilia - today’s article, please see the sub headline.

The experts: neurologists on 17 simple ways to look after your brain

Sleep well, swap butter for olive oil, learn a musical instrument – or embrace some other ‘magnificent obsession’. Here is what doctors do themselves to delay the onset of cognitive decline

www.theguardian.com

 

[Kingrex]

I heard this system last night. I was actually shocked how good it played. Generally not my type of equipment. The speakers were set in a living room. Environment with lots of glass, hard surfaces and absolutely no treatments. Oddly, I think it played to the system. It allowed more air space around the music. I did not sense any smearing, bloat or unpleasantries. During playback. The music was extremely detailed, and the balance from top to bottom was superb. A lot of tuning went into this system. A lot of thought into the rack and device is used to support the equipment. Two separate manufacturer's cables were in use, but they were somewhat of a loom for power on speaker.Add another loom for interconnect.

While the digital and vinyl sounded different, the digital was nothing but pleasing. I never sensed any fatigue.

What I did find unique was we turned the subs on and off. With the subs off, I suddenly felt a need to listen more closely to what the speaker's and system was doing. I was putting my audio file ears on. As soon as the subs were turned back on, I gelled into the performances and was just listening to the music. The subs were integrated extremely well.

I can see how somebody having the means to afford a system like this would be happy to make the investment.

 

[John T]

I heard this system last night. I was actually shocked how good it played. Generally not my type of equipment. The speakers were set in a living room. Environment with lots of glass, hard surfaces and absolutely no treatments. Oddly, I think it played to the system. It allowed more air space around the music. I did not sense any smearing, bloat or unpleasantries. During playback. The music was extremely detailed, and the balance from top to bottom was superb. A lot of tuning went into this system. A lot of thought into the rack and device is used to support the equipment. Two separate manufacturer's cables were in use, but they were somewhat of a loom for power on speaker.Add another loom for interconnect.

While the digital and vinyl sounded different, the digital was nothing but pleasing. I never sensed any fatigue.

What I did find unique was we turned the subs on and off. With the subs off, I suddenly felt a need to listen more closely to what the speaker's and system was doing. I was putting my audio file ears on. As soon as the subs were turned back on, I gelled into the performances and was just listening to the music. The subs were integrated extremely well.

I can see how somebody having the means to afford a system like this would be happy to make the investment.

Is that Kirkland NY???

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Is that Kirkland NY???

Kirkland is a suburb of Seattle next to Redmond (home of Microsoft). the Costco 'Kirkland' brand is from that city. our local audio club meets there.

 

[ssfas]

Not quite, and no "probably" involved. I don't think anyone is under the illusion of getting 100 % of the experience from their systems.

What I want, and get, from my system is a visceral and transparent experience of the music I love. Two points here:

1) There are many pieces which I will never be able to experience live, or if so, I would have to travel long distances for.

2) Also, I am not a listener satisfied with hearing a piece of music once. I want to dive deeply into the music. I want repeat performances any time I want to, which allow me to really get to know pieces and to study them. This would be impossible from just live performances, but obviously you can get the experience easily from a system.

I enjoy live performances, but they will never be able to replace the satisfaction of my musical needs as it is achieved on my high end system.

Conversely, the other way around holds as well.

Perhaps the biggest difference between live and recorded performance is that with the latter you know what you’re going to get. I get a real thrill from going to new dance, new music and new theatre. next week I am seeing a Norwegian Jazz trumpeter at Ronnie Scotts I’ve never heard before and a comic opera by Telemann at Covent Garden that I know nothing about.

One of the real advantages I find of a decent stereo is the ability to compare performances rapidly using streaming, which I do quite often. I was doing it the other day with Bach’s flute sonatas, which I find to be the most glorious music.

What has come out of this discussion is that most if not all people have their own unique reasons for having a hi-fi system, whether driven by music, technology, their personal relationships, where they live or simply a means of parting with disposable income. if it meets those needs, clearly the expenditure provides value.

I remain of view that there are plenty of people who are probably on the hedonic treadmill, simply because enough of them are honest enough to admit it, cycling various products and ending up where they started. I’ve probably been on the treadmill myself a few times.

I would reiterate my agreement with @Kingrex that what’s best requires good power and good acoustics. As to the suggestion that it was a coping mechanism, it cost me $300 for a power cable out of a $500,000 project and it allowed me to sell an expensive Shunyata conditioner for a much cheaper Puritan one.

I’m often driven by curiosity. I’m waiting delivery tomorrow of a MOFI master phono stage, which unusually I bought on spec. I’m interested in the performance of the transimpedance inputs. Plus it reduces 3 boxes to one, I like less boxes to more.

 

[John T]

Kirkland is a suburb of Seattle next to Redmond (home of Microsoft). the Costco 'Kirkland' brand is from that city. our local audio club meets there.

Thanks Mike! I grew up in upstate NY and we had a Kirkland...

 

[JiminGa]

I seem to remember the ultimatum came after he had a high-speed crash at the Nurburgring. When we talk about whether expensive Audio provides value, I suppose we should factor in the non-monetary impact it has on the value of our relationship relationships.

On this we agree. Everything should be measured in the context of "the whole" which includes how are choices effect everything else. Lucky for me my wife and friends enthusiastically participate in my love of Hi Fi

 

[Kingrex]

I’m often driven by curiosity. I’m waiting delivery tomorrow of a MOFI master phono stage, which unusually I bought on spec. I’m interested in the performance of the transimpedance inputs. Plus it reduces 3 boxes to one, I like less boxes to momore.

I have the Channel D. I have also heard a variety of the sutherland models. They are all very good.I'm pretty affordable for what you get.

 

[Ron Resnick]

[hifi] -- think of it from the purely practical viewpoint, no different from a dishwasher or tumble dryer.

I can do that about fancy, shiny golf clubs, because golf means nothing to me. For audio hobbyists, what fun is that?

 

[Atmasphere]

I was agreeing on the power issue. It made all the difference to me.

I didn’t say anything about whether high end gear is worth the money because I’ve never spent megabucks on hifi. I have friends who are very wealthy, where money is just a number, they could buy the world’s most expensive hifi without skipping a beat. As none to my knowledge have any interest in music, one in particular would consider even a $30 Alexa Dot of no value as it would not contribute anything to his wellbeing.

On the other hand, if high-end hifi is all that matters in your life, besides putting aside enough money to pay the rent and feed yourself, spending every last penny on hifi would be the best way to get value from your money.

It really depends how you perceive value. If you take the view that the aim is to maximise your happiness and wellbeing, there is a long established school of thought that expenditure usually only results in a short-term elevation and you are doomed to the same level of happiness or unhappiness. I suspect this is the case for many audiophiles.

We had a customer whose system was in his mobile home in a mobile home park. I'd not be surprised if the system cost more than the mobile home. Its all about priorities.

 

[Elliot G.]

I can do that about fancy, shiny golf clubs, because golf means nothing to me. For audio hobbyists, what fun is that?

its obvious you aren't a golfer LOL no one describes golf clubs that way who plays

 

[AudioHR]

Sad story. But maybe he is better off without her. ´There has be be an acceptance of oddities and special interests and even obsessions in a relationship. You cant own another person, you can just live with them -- or not.
The question if hifi is worth the money is simple for me. Yes it is -- to me. What Im worried about is if it make me into a more materialistic person. If physical things becomes too important. I see that as a danger in this hobby. Revering objects... is a dangerous path to walk.
And of course -- it is a nerdy hobby. I have to realize that very few people have any interest in it. If I meet other people I can't go on talking about hifi -- or I will lose friends. Realizing that hifi is completely nonsensincal to most peolpe puts it into perspective.
So why bother about it? I agree with Peter A that music out of a system have other and in some parts better qualities than live music. Its possible to set up microphones in a way to capture the complete orchestra in a way you never can hear it from a listerners position in a concert hall. Is that worth something? Yes a lot to me.

I can't disagree with what you say.

Hifi is completely nonsensical to most people. To me though the hours that I have spent listening to music and yes constantly upgrading my "material" system to make it better have been a joy.

My journey has been relatively solitary for close to 50 years. I enjoyed the process of continually trying to improve my components and loved listening to music! A few of my friends enjoyed my music nights but they weren't really into it like me, lol. I didn't need anyone to validate me, I just enjoyed listening and learning.

However there is hope for the solidity audiophile. Recently I have made some new friends who are into it. We often get together at each other's places to socialize, talk about audio and enjoy listening to music on someone's systems. Like the WBF the diversity is incredible: Some have an analogue focus, some are digital. Tubes vs solid state. Expensive vs value orientated. Dedicated rooms vs multi purpose.....We have even gone to the Munich Show together a few times. The best thing though is we frequently go to concerts and performances together! I have to admit it makes the journey more fulfilling!

 

[ssfas]

OK I understand what you are saying. You mention obsession. Everything is subject to obsession including work, fitness, cleanliness, sports etc. etc. etc. Nothing special about Hi Fi. We all need some self reflection here. You also imply that spending big money on Hi Fi is due largely to a desire to acquire something rare and expensive. Same would be true of some Ferrari owners and buyers of 20k cult burgundy. The problem is that you have such a bright line you assume that ALL purchasers of such things do it for ego purposes and that they are somehow under developed emotionally. The reality is that in some cases you are right and in some cases you are wrong. Consider that for some the purchase is not the end but a means to a different end. I know Burgundy collectors who just store the stuff like a library to show off. Me? I drink it because I love it and I appreciate everything about it. (Before you give me some "rich guy" brush off know that I wore my dad's hand me downs to high school and I was a dropout before getting my act together.) Same with Hi FI. I really appreciate not only the sound but the true artistry and devotion that a handful of people/companies apply to their craft. I reward that. I live a life and death existence every day. 100% full contact .You? Every evening I allow myself one hour to just sit, listen and feel the music of the universe creep back into me. Holographic, real, soul rejuvenating. The technologies you mention can not and will not ever replace this for me. Please just say that for you it doesn't make sense. I accept that. You are in the 99%

I mentioned in my previous post that it is clear from this thread that people buy audio equipment for a vast range of personal reasons. Hence there are likely an equal and myriad number of ways by which people determine value. I certainly did not imply that high-end hi-fi is about the desire to acquire something rare and expensive. That is certainly likely to be the outcome, but I don’t know other people’s motives any more than I suppose you do. I only mentioned cars because, if you’re going to be obsessive about something shiny, hi-fi seems to be by far the cheaper option, even at the very top end.

I certainly have nothing against rich guys (I know a few, I might even be one myself). Where I live we don’t really discuss other people’s money. My best friend has gone from considerable wealth to financial difficulty and it’s just not something we’ve ever discussed. It’s not considered polite. he sold his holiday home and his yacht and downgraded his house, we don’t talk about it or judge each other and have probably become better friends. When he comes round, I always get some nice wine, although I prefer gin and a good book.

 

[Kingrex]

I only mentioned cars because, if you’re going to be obsessive about something shiny, hi-fi seems to be by far the cheaper option, even at the very top end.

I was shocked a new Porsche Mecan all electric with active suspension management, a level 1 premium package which is leather on the seat tops only, and adaptive cruise was $82,000. I was thinking, this cost less than most amps I see at audio shows. The hot rodded version that was very nice was $102,000. I did not purchase either. I usually wait for a car to be a 3 year lease return, sold by the dealer with a 2 year Porsche warranty. Not sure if I would do this with an electric.

 

[Iamrael]

I was shocked a new Porsche Mecan all electric with active suspension management, a level 1 premium package which is leather on the seat tops only, and adaptive cruise was $82,000. I was thinking, this cost less than most amps I see at audio shows. The hot rodded version that was very nice was $102,000. I did not purchase either. I usually wait for a car to be a 3 year lease return, sold by the dealer with a 2 year Porsche warranty. Not sure if I would do this with an electric.

I would stay far away from any “lease return”.

 

[Kingrex]

I would stay far away from any “lease return”.

The way I understand it, if a dealer (Porsche, Mercedes, BMW etc) gets a lease back and they feel the car is in excellent shape, they will sell it. It usually gets an additional 2 year manufacturer warranty.
If they feel the car has issues, they sell it to Joes Used Cars on Junk street. I only purchase from dealers. As in, I go to a Porsche dealer and look at what they have in there used stock. I do not shop from Joe. This is how I got my last Porsche and Mercedes. I have had both for over 12 years with no major issue.

I never purchase new. I'm not that rich. I only have so many millions in the bank. They have to last.
Why would you not purchase a Lease return. There are a lot of people that don't buy out the lease. And I don't see then doing anything to mistreat the vehicle. If it comes back damaged, they ding you on the return. So they come back clean. And I think Lease come with services so the dealer knows they are getting done. Could be wrong on the service side. Anyhow, I have had good luck that way.

 

[ssfas]

The way I understand it, if a dealer (Porsche, Mercedes, BMW etc) gets a lease back and they feel the car is in excellent shape, they will sell it. It usually gets an additional 2 year manufacturer warranty.
If they feel the car has issues, they sell it to Joes Used Cars on Junk street. I only purchase from dealers. As in, I go to a Porsche dealer and look at what they have in there used stock. I do not shop from Joe. This is how I got my last Porsche and Mercedes. I have had both for over 12 years with no major issue.

I never purchase new. I'm not that rich. I only have so many millions in the bank. They have to last.
Why would you not purchase a Lease return. There are a lot of people that don't buy out the lease. And I don't see then doing anything to mistreat the vehicle. If it comes back damaged, they ding you on the return. So they come back clean. And I think Lease come with services so the dealer knows they are getting done. Could be wrong on the service side. Anyhow, I have had good luck that way.

The only reason why I can remember the name of my car, that I rarely drive, is because it has the same name as my streamer. The car is a Nissan Pulsar and the streamer an Innuos Pulsar. On the used market, the streamer is worth more than the car.

My wife has a nice Hyundai EV. Here in the UK we get a 100% business deduction for new or ex-demo EV's. I bought it ex-demo, or at least my business did.