Is High End Audio Gear Worth the Money?

[Holmz]

I have written many times that I think audiophiles use "colored" as a "general purpose slur" against whatever components of which they don't like the sound. ….

“Alt Audiophile”???

Yes, I have worn Etymotic ear protection, very good and useful, and unlike normal earplugs they don't muffle the frequency spectrum too much. Yet not rarely the music in a rock concert is so outrageously loud that even with tightly fitting ear Etymotics healthy exposure levels are exceeded -- by a substantial amount.

Not wearing them in such a situation is disaster, for sure, but the help is limited.

Yeah -No…
Limited at 20-25 dB down is not “limited”, but rather essential.

You/one can bitch about the 120 db being 95dB after the etymotics as being above the 85 dB OSHA level, but the “Substantial amount”

It is like complaining that gun shot to chest, while wearing a bullet proof vest will still hurt.
While true… I would like the protection in that scenario as well as the scenario with the ear protection.

 

[Bobvin]

Here we disagree Bob. The first thing I disable in any informatic systems is any ability to make suggestions. I am not an expert in that matters, but people who are have explained me the power and dangers of AI techniques.

As you say, there is a large probability that you will like stuff Roon finds. But you are being shaped by an AI bot, that knows a lot more than you can imagine.

I am extremely favorable to the net and to the proper use of search engines - since long I am a frequent user of advanced google. But I try to do my best to control what I get and complement it with alternative sources.

I get it. But I’ve been on the ‘net since Netscape Navigator and Internet Explorer versions 1, so I doubt very much the giant databases have much more to learn about my buying habits, preferences, etc. Any efforts to safeguard myself at this point are probably pointless. And I love discovering new music — besides a couple SiriusXM channels in my truck i don’t otherwise listen to radio, and i’m kinda lazy about seeking it out so when ROON or Qobuz shows me a “curated for me” list I typically listen to the tracks, some are quickly discounted as not for me, others are a delight.

I have a young woman visit here twice a month for “assisted stretching”. She does both my wife and i for an hour each visit. I let ROON radio pick songs when my playlist ended. ROON served up a song this young woman once danced to as a professional ballerina. (We set up the massage table in my listening room.) She was “hey, I know this song, can you turn it up?” I found the piece extremely moving — the ballerina offered to dance it for us on our back lawn. How fun would that be!

 

[Al M.]

“Alt Audiophile”???


Yeah -No…
Limited at 20-25 dB down is not “limited”, but rather essential.

You/one can bitch about the 120 db being 95dB after the etymotics as being above the 85 dB OSHA level, but the “Substantial amount”

It is like complaining that gun shot to chest, while wearing a bullet proof vest will still hurt.
While true… I would like the protection in that scenario as well as the scenario with the ear protection.

It's both essential and limited.

A few months ago a friend and I went to a rock concert and we both had Etymotic ear plugs. It was still excruciatingly loud. I know what 95 dB sounds like and this was not it. It must have been substantially more. We were standing next to each other but the only way we could communicate through that sonic mayhem was texting. Over text my friend said after a while that he did not enjoy it anymore and wanted to leave. I immediately agreed. It was undoubtedly better for our ears. We relaxed at the bar.

The Etymotic ear plugs are definitely useful. They helped with not suffering damage to our ears, but the sound dampening wasn't enough to want us to stay.

Last Sunday I was watching "Pink Floyd at Pompeii" in IMAX. At strategic moments, when the music was just a bit too loud, I used the Etymotic plugs and the whole thing was a grand experience.

 

[bonzo75]

. Maybe you should spend $28,000 on a new pair of speaker to put in your living room so you can relax after work and decompress.

Objection, very few of the WBF dads and sons relax or decompress due to their system. Quite the reverse, they have anxiety about how to fix things.

That said, the above is a good dad because by inducing audio addiction he is keeping his son from having no funds to spend on drugs, women, gym, etc

 

[wil]

I get it. But I’ve been on the ‘net since Netscape Navigator and Internet Explorer versions 1, so I doubt very much the giant databases have much more to learn about my buying habits, preferences, etc. Any efforts to safeguard myself at this point are probably pointless. And I love discovering new music — besides a couple SiriusXM channels in my truck i don’t otherwise listen to radio, and i’m kinda lazy about seeking it out so when ROON or Qobuz shows me a “curated for me” list I typically listen to the tracks, some are quickly discounted as not for me, others are a delight.

I have a young woman visit here twice a month for “assisted stretching”. She does both my wife and i for an hour each visit. I let ROON radio pick songs when my playlist ended. ROON served up a song this young woman once danced to as a professional ballerina. (We set up the massage table in my listening room.) She was “hey, I know this song, can you turn it up?” I found the piece extremely moving — the ballerina offered to dance it for us on our back lawn. How fun would that be!

First heard the Dinah Washington/ Richter version about 15 years ago. It makes time stand still.

 

[ssfas]

Objection, very few of the WBF dads and sons relax or decompress due to their system. Quite the reverse, they have anxiety about how to fix things.

That said, the above is a good dad because by inducing audio addiction he is keeping his son from having no funds to spend on drugs, women, gym, etc

I was going to say an audio addiction would keep some kids from spending $'000s on Taylor Swift concert tickets. What you don't get from a $500,000 audio system is Taylor Swift gyrating in front of you in a leotard for 3 hours. Some may think that a blessing, but that's what people want to see and why they pay the big bucks.

We spend well over $10,000 on ballet and dance tickets each year, maybe double that, but I never listen to the music at home because it's only perhaps 25% of the performance. Glastonbury tickets are now about $450 for 5 days of solid live music, add the price of a coach ticket and a couple of beers ... live music is far better value and I'd happily give up my stereo system if I could go to live events when I like (which is my plan).

High-end types probably live in the doomed hope of getting 100% of the experience from their systems, whereas the more time you spend going to live shows the more ridiculous that seems. To young folk immersed in live music high-end hifi must seem just mad. I was speaking to a dealer on Friday (bought a new phono) and his view was that many high-end customers don't actually associate high-end with live music, it's a entirely separate pursuit towards some ethereal goal.

 

[bonzo75]

I was going to say an audio addiction would keep some kids from spending $'000s on Taylor Swift concert tickets. What you don't get from a $500,000 audio system is Taylor Swift gyrating in front of you in a leotard for 3 hours. Some may think that a blessing, but that's what people want to see and why they pay the big bucks.

We spend well over $10,000 on ballet and dance tickets each year, maybe double that, but I never listen to the music at home because it's only perhaps 25% of the performance. Glastonbury tickets are now about $450 for 5 days of solid live music, add the price of a coach ticket and a couple of beers ... live music is far better value and I'd happily give up my stereo system if I could go to live events when I like (which is my plan).

High-end types probably live in the doomed hope of getting 100% of the experience from their systems, whereas the more time you spend going to live shows the more ridiculous that seems. To young folk immersed in live music high-end hifi must seem just mad. I was speaking to a dealer on Friday (bought a new phono) and his view was that many high-end customers don't actually associate high-end with live music, it's a entirely separate pursuit towards some ethereal goal.

Very few of the users live in London which is rich in concerts. Even outside London there are very few cities anywhere similar

 

[Elliot G.]

he likes of @Elliot G., who has been an audiophile all his life, fail to appreciate that you can love music, live and recorded, without any real interest in equipment at all, let alone any audiophile credentials.

Sir you don't know anything about me and your absurd conclusions based on your emotions are just BS. Its hysterical that your singular life experience entitles you to make wild and assumptions about others.

 

[mtemur]

They have just bought a place and I offered to buy them some speakers that work, but they like to be self-sufficient and don't like favours. I was going to offer a pair of these: https://alchrisaudio.co.uk/product-range/ols/products/tx1-bookshelf-loudspeaker

I wish I had a father thinks like you. Self sufficient or not, I wouldn’t hesitate to accept the gift. I’d probably also ask if he could afford an even better speaker.

 

[ssfas]

Sir you don't know anything about me and your absurd conclusions based on your emotions are just BS. Its hysterical that your singular life experience entitles you to make wild and assumptions about others.

What I know about you is your career history in high-end, set out in detail on your website:

Elliot Goldman - Bending Wave USA

Bending Wave USA Audiophile Professionals. Offering High-End Audio Products, CH Precision, Göbel Speakers, Wadax, & Esoteric. (954) 579-7463.

www.bendingwaveusa.com

The brands listed on your website (Esoteric, Gobel, Martin Logan, Reiki, Revival, Riviera, Shunyata, Wadax) are exclusively high end.

Meanwhile, I'm investing time trying to find the absolute best pair of loudspeakers for under about $1,500 as a new home gift for my son, because if I can get him to accept a gift at all that will be about the limit, and he would reject anything branded.

The selling point of https://alchrisaudio.co.uk/product-range/ols/products/tx1-bookshelf-loudspeaker is that Alan Clark is an industry veteran who makes great value speakers and is also a master cabinetmaker, so the cabinets are all hand made by him. They are sold direct to order. He also happens to be the brother or Ray Clark, who runs the Classic Turntable Company. I heard some of his speakers at Ray's place when I went to collect my Garrard 301.

Can you recommend a better < $1,500 speaker? Do you sell < $1,500 speakers?

 

[Kingrex]

I hope my kids are no more "lovely" than anyone else's. Fortunately their values don't revolve around money and accumulation of wealth and stuff. Quite the opposite.

@Elliot G. :
You are looking at this only through your eyes as a hobbyist. You aren't part of the audio business.
What does someone running a store selling uber high-end hifi learn about the average music-loving kid who buys their audio equipment (usually headphones) on Amazon?

Young people were sold headphones, ear buds, ipads, ipods and cell phones.
So were old people, and middle aged people like me. I make sure I go for a walk every day with my phone and Sony MX5 wireless headphones.

They listen to music as an accessory not as something to do as a singular act. That is what happened.
Yes, because they still have a social life. They listen to music with their friends, and are very knowledgeable. Some of their friends are in the music business (sound engineers etc.)

They bought what celebs told them to have.
No they don't - but audiophiles often live and die on the word of cult reviewers like Fremer, Atkinson etc.

I am in this business I see what walks in and what calls on the phone.
He's in the high-end business, a remote little corner of the hifi industry few people know about.

There is little or none music education in schools
There was lots of music at my school and my kid's schools. They all had orchestras, bands etc. My younger's son's headmaster was Jacob Collier's father. Not his son's talent, but a good pianist. This is the new concert hall at my old school. In the UK we have several schools for musically gifted kids, such as the Menuhin School, Chetham's, The Purcell School, Guildhall etc. They are state funded.
View attachment 149487

FM radio largely disappeared, concerts became shows and then we are here.
BBC Radio is as popular as ever, it's much more diverse and broadcasts digitally.

It was great to see Chesky's Kid make something entry level and I wish him much success if he can market it to bring first time buyers into audio stores where they can "experience " quality sound at some level. This is the key. In order to do that the focus on how they market must change and change drastically. It has to be cool again.

I very much doubt that the future is audio stores selling massive audio systems. My elder son is a product designer and one of his first jobs was with the company that makes these.
View attachment 149488
I have them throughout my house. I have them throughout my house. I listen through them far more than my hifi.

They are sound and light, contain a complete audio system (75w Class D, Roon Ready, Amazon, Alexa, Spotify, Tidal, Radio, uPnP etc.), are voice controlled. Go to 40 Hz -6db, flat response, brilliant DSP. Cost $500 each. The speaker was designed by Laurence Dickie, of B&W and Vivid fame. Roon asked me to do a blog.

Roon Community Reviews: Zuma Lumisonic, the Ultimate Wireless Multi-room System - Roon Labs

Roon Community contributor Steven44 graciously contributed the following review. Roon Editorial staff added layout and minor editing to convert the forum posts to a review format. Overview Zuma Lumisonic is a state-of-the-art Roon Ready lighting and sound system. Each light/sound unit is an...

blog.roonlabs.com

I totally agree. This is how I perceive Elliot. He does not understand conversation is not what you said. Its what other people think you said. And you did a marvelous job portraying how I interpret his posts.

And ,FWIW, I am an audiophile and continually trying to improve the sound of my system. I am all for it. I help others power their systems to get better performace.
I do have an issue with exorbitant pricing and the attachment of quality to that exorbitant $$$$. Even when I and my wife were fully working, I disliked dropping high$$$ on gear. I always look for high value at affordable prices. I feel I hit the ball out of the park with my speaker, amp, preamp, TT and electrical power supply to the home and rack. I really only want a swarm of subs now. Done.

 

[Rensselaer]

What I know about you is your career history in high-end, set out in detail on your website:

Elliot Goldman - Bending Wave USA

Bending Wave USA Audiophile Professionals. Offering High-End Audio Products, CH Precision, Göbel Speakers, Wadax, & Esoteric. (954) 579-7463.

www.bendingwaveusa.com

The brands listed on your website (Esoteric, Gobel, Martin Logan, Reiki, Revival, Riviera, Shunyata, Wadax) are exclusively high end.

Meanwhile, I'm investing time trying to find the absolute best pair of loudspeakers for under about $1,500 as a new home gift for my son, because if I can get him to accept a gift at all that will be about the limit, and he would reject anything branded.

The selling point of https://alchrisaudio.co.uk/product-range/ols/products/tx1-bookshelf-loudspeaker is that Alan Clark is an industry veteran who makes great value speakers and is also a master cabinetmaker, so the cabinets are all hand made by him. They are sold direct to order. He also happens to be the brother or Ray Clark, who runs the Classic Turntable Company. I heard some of his speakers at Ray's place when I went to collect my Garrard 301.

Can you recommend a better < $1,500 speaker? Do you sell < $1,500 speakers?

If you can find a working pair, Altec A5 or A7’s?

 

[treitz3]

Gentlemen, please get back to the topic and STOP talking about individual members! This is part of the TOS.

No more posts about individual members will be tolerated, period. Do not be surprised if some posts are deleted.

Tom

 

[ssfas]

If you can find a working pair, Altec A5 or A7’s?

An excellent recommendation - except the nearest pair is in Osaka.

Like many 20somethings, they are into vintage. Only buy vintage clothes, don't drive, a little bit woke at the edges.
This might be a possibility, from a local store that does lots of vintage. They rent lots of stuff out to the BBC for TV and film.

Spendor BC3

Specifications Type: 4 way, 4 driver loudspeaker system Frequency Response: 30Hz to 20kHz Power Handling: 70W Crossover Frequency: 700, 3000, 13000Hz Impedance: 8Ω Bass: 1 x 12" cone Midbass: 1 x 8" cone Tweeter: 1 x HF1300 Super Tweeter: 1 x HF2000 Dimensions: 31.5 x 15.5 x 15.5 inches Weight...

audiogold.co.uk

 

[ssfas]

I totally agree. This is how I perceive Elliot. He does not understand conversation is not what you said. Its what other people think you said. And you did a marvelous job portraying how I interpret his posts.

And ,FWIW, I am an audiophile and continually trying to improve the sound of my system. I am all for it. I help others power their systems to get better performace.
I do have an issue with exorbitant pricing and the attachment of quality to that exorbitant $$$$. Even when I and my wife were fully working, I disliked dropping high$$$ on gear. I always look for high value at affordable prices. I feel I hit the ball out of the park with my speaker, amp, preamp, TT and electrical power supply to the home and rack. I really only want a swarm of subs now. Done.

Certainly rewiring my house from the underground cable and being able to provide a dedicated 100A phase to the hifi reaped more benefit than any single component could likely do.

Likewise, I'm informed that over here at least the Puritan PM156 is having a rather devastating impact on more expensive mains distribution products.

I suspect that for the typical purchase of a component in the region of say $1000-$5000, it is a much more financially sensitive decision than someone spending $50,000 or $100,000 on a component. The market at low price points is much more competitive and consequently provides vastly better value.

 

[Lee]

Certainly rewiring my house from the underground cable and being able to provide a dedicated 100A phase to the hifi reaped more benefit than any single component could likely do.

Likewise, I'm informed that over here at least the Puritan PM156 is having a rather devastating impact on more expensive mains distribution products.

I suspect that for the typical purchase of a component in the region of say $1000-$5000, it is a much more financially sensitive decision than someone spending $50,000 or $100,000 on a component. The market at low price points is much more competitive and consequently provides vastly better value.

That feels more like audiophile cope than objectively a better value.

 

[Holmz]

That feels more like audiophile cope than objectively a better value.

With the title of the thread being ”Is High End Audio Gear Worth the Money?”
and his response…

It sounds like @ssfas is saying “No, high end gear is Not worth the money. Just put the money into a new power line.”

 

[Atmasphere]

And no higher or low orders cross overs… so the immediacy is also perhaps tied into “no XO”?

That is what I was saying, yes. It helps a lot that the driver really has very little excursion needed since it is so close to the ear.

 

[Al M.]

High-end types probably live in the doomed hope of getting 100% of the experience from their systems, whereas the more time you spend going to live shows the more ridiculous that seems. To young folk immersed in live music high-end hifi must seem just mad. I was speaking to a dealer on Friday (bought a new phono) and his view was that many high-end customers don't actually associate high-end with live music, it's a entirely separate pursuit towards some ethereal goal.

Not quite, and no "probably" involved. I don't think anyone is under the illusion of getting 100 % of the experience from their systems.

What I want, and get, from my system is a visceral and transparent experience of the music I love. Two points here:

1) There are many pieces which I will never be able to experience live, or if so, I would have to travel long distances for.

2) Also, I am not a listener satisfied with hearing a piece of music once. I want to dive deeply into the music. I want repeat performances any time I want to, which allow me to really get to know pieces and to study them. This would be impossible from just live performances, but obviously you can get the experience easily from a system.

I enjoy live performances, but they will never be able to replace the satisfaction of my musical needs as it is achieved on my high end system.

Conversely, the other way around holds as well.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I was going to say an audio addiction would keep some kids from spending $'000s on Taylor Swift concert tickets. What you don't get from a $500,000 audio system is Taylor Swift gyrating in front of you in a leotard for 3 hours. Some may think that a blessing, but that's what people want to see and why they pay the big bucks.

We spend well over $10,000 on ballet and dance tickets each year, maybe double that, but I never listen to the music at home because it's only perhaps 25% of the performance. Glastonbury tickets are now about $450 for 5 days of solid live music, add the price of a coach ticket and a couple of beers ... live music is far better value and I'd happily give up my stereo system if I could go to live events when I like (which is my plan).

High-end types probably live in the doomed hope of getting 100% of the experience from their systems, whereas the more time you spend going to live shows the more ridiculous that seems. To young folk immersed in live music high-end hifi must seem just mad. I was speaking to a dealer on Friday (bought a new phono) and his view was that many high-end customers don't actually associate high-end with live music, it's a entirely separate pursuit towards some ethereal goal.

i think it's a mistake and bad form to denigrate other's choices for musical enjoyment. and tell others how they should feel or not feel about their experience. how do you know what ROI i or anyone you don't know might get from their system?

i respect that you have your own priorities, and am happy for you that it's checking your boxes. and informing us about what you love and your priorities is a positive. we can learn from that.

if i lived in another location maybe my viewpoint would be different? maybe if you lived somewhere else yours might be different too. but taking that and trying to somehow claim high musical enjoyment ground is over the line. it's personal. one is not objectively superior to another. it's finding the peace of mind and experience we want that counts. sometimes that is in our own home. we can never walk in someone else's shoes and know exactly what they know.