Is High End Audio Gear Worth the Money?

[Elliot G.]

You don't think driving in the car playing music and singing with your kid is exposure to music. You don't think playing music on the Alexa is exposure to music. Do you think sitting a kid in a chair forcing them to name classical composers and rapping them on the nuckles with a ruller will make a life longer music lover.

You don't need epensive toys to enjoy music. You don't appreciate music any more than a poor man because your rich and have an expensive stereo.
If you think, Is It Worth It means do you have to have an expensive stereo to love music, then we see the thread subject differently. I see the thread as pertaining to an audiophile only and the exorbitant pricing of exclusive brands. I don't see the thread subject as, do you have to spend money to enjoy music. I don't think your trying to say that either. But you seem to resist the idea of a headphone company selling millions of devices, worth billions of dollars as reflecting consumers continuing love of music. You seem to want to tie a financial investment to a measure of love.

Congratulations you were a good dad. What about the other hundreds of millions that did not get this? Everything is about YOU. Its really sad to me that you really cant read very well and just make up shit. IGNORE I am tired of you and your BS.

 

[Atmasphere]

Do they also have cross overs and multiple drivers?

Not the ones I've used! Unlike 'full range' drivers in loudspeakers, the drivers in headphones don't have the Doppler effect distortions since the excursion on them is so low- on account of how close your ears are to the driver. So you get the immediacy 'full range' drivers can exhibit, but without them falling apart when you crank the volume.

 

[hopkins]

One thing I am curious about is how AI will affect "high end audio". Will a "super intelligent" AI (which is around the corner) help in designing better equipment? Will this equipment, as a result become more affordable? In other industries, AI is already being used to assist in designing new materials and new products.

Could AI, for example, design a speaker from A to Z - cabinet, drivers, crossovers - in ways that may not have been imagined today? Why not...

What about speaker placement and room treatment? Imagine filming your living room and having AI determine the optimal speaker and listening spot based on recognition of all your room's parameters and speaker attributes, and provide recommendations on acoustic treatment?

 

[hopkins]

As a side note, but not directly relevant to the topic, one thing I would love to be able to have is an AI based app that could "hear" a track and automatically pull all the relevant information: recording date, musicians, perhaps even liner notes or reviews. That would be very cool and very useful. Someday...

 

[thedudeabides]

Her father's system is excellent and he has a magnificent vinyl collection. They just have no interest or aspirations for anything close to high end audio, it's the last thing on their list of financial priorities, just good sound out of a modest system.

Although WBF is dominated by hardware discussions, nice to hear stories about folks who prioritize the message over the messenger.

 

[JiminGa]

You would seem to be spectacularly out of touch and condescending. You've spent most of your life in high-end audio that most of the top 1% earning grown up's can't afford, let alone kids on a limited budget.

My kids are 24 and 28. Both are big in to music, more the 28 year old. Quite a lot of his social life is around music, he and his friends (most from his school days) regularly go to gigs and festivals. He's been going to Glastonbury with the same group since he was 15. Most of them play instruments, he plays electric and acoustic guitar. They are not so gullible as to follow celebrity trends, and don't have the money to pay inflated prices for anything. Both have the same headphones and my wife and I (Sony WH-1000XM5). They and their friends sit and listen to music as a social activity and are very knowledgeable. He used to do a student radio show focusing on jazz and blues. One of his favourited hobbies is painting and he enjoys nothing better than an afternoon painting and listening to music.

My elder son and his girlfriend have a hand-me-down stereo, a lot of records and an Auralic Aries Mini streamer I donated, into a 1980s integrated amplifier (cost $300 7 years ago). My younger son just has headphones and an encyclopaedic knowledge of rap music, and a lot else besides.

Both my elder son and his girlfriend have been exposed to high-end audio. Her father's system is excellent and he has a magnificent vinyl collection. They just have no interest or aspirations for anything close to high end audio, it's the last thing on their list of financial priorities, just good sound out of a modest system.

I appreciate your points and I congratulate you on having such lovely children. I don’t agree with your points about Elliot being out of touch or condescending. You are taking your data points and extrapolating it to form an opinion about Elliot who has a great deal more data points collected over decades. It’s certainly ok to disagree with his opinion but I don’t think your labeling his the way you did is very fair.

 

[Lagonda]

As a side note, but not directly relevant to the topic, one thing I would love to be able to have is an AI based app that could "hear" a track and automatically pull all the relevant information: recording date, musicians, perhaps even liner notes or reviews. That would be very cool and very useful. Someday...

Shazam https://apps.apple.com/dk/app/shazam-find-music-concerts/id284993459 gets you part of the way, even with lyrics on most tracks. Regretfully they do not cooperate with AllMusic https://www.allmusic.com/artist/viktor-krauss-mn0000806925 anymore, you have to do a additional search for review and album information.

 

[Bobvin]

As a side note, but not directly relevant to the topic, one thing I would love to be able to have is an AI based app that could "hear" a track and automatically pull all the relevant information: recording date, musicians, perhaps even liner notes or reviews. That would be very cool and very useful. Someday...

I think there is already some integration of sound apps like Shazam and SoundHound with Roon or other streaming services that gets you close to that. I’d be happy if my Shazam history was recognized by Roon.

As to a cool AI trick, I look forward to just telling Roon to analyze my library (or recent listening history) and as an example “go find music from Mongolia” that matches my listening habits. (Or wherever, the idea is discovering music I’d never stumble on myself.) Roon Radio already does this to a degree, and I love some of the stuff Roon finds.

 

[hopkins]

Shazam https://apps.apple.com/dk/app/shazam-find-music-concerts/id284993459 gets you part of the way, even with lyrics on most tracks. Regretfully they do not cooperate with AllMusic https://www.allmusic.com/artist/viktor-krauss-mn0000806925 anymore, you have to do a additional search for review and album information.

The value of Shazam and AllMusic really depends on how deep and detailed information you need. I build my own database, because of these limitations, but hope someday complete and accurate information will be more easily accessible.

 

[ssfas]

Hi, what’s the system?

Do your son and his gf argue on whose father’s system sounds more natural?

They have been together 11 years and I don't think his girlfriend has ever listened to my system. My son has probably only listened to my system a few times. I have never listened to her father's system (electronics are I think CH Precision).

As our kids are music lovers but not audiophiles, listening to hifi has never been a social activity and it's not something we do. We do lots of other stuff together, social, sport, holidays and we go to gigs as a family (usually jazz mostly at Ronnie Scott's, which my wife likes, the last gig was The Cookers about a month ago). We quite often discuss record collecting and we often buy each other vinyl as gifts. We just don't discuss hifi.

I was round at their rented flat the other week and we were listening to some records. Their speakers are just terrible. His girlfriend has an emotional attachment to them from when she was a kid. They have just bought a place and I offered to buy them some speakers that work, but they like to be self-sufficient and don't like favours. I was going to offer a pair of these: https://alchrisaudio.co.uk/product-range/ols/products/tx1-bookshelf-loudspeaker

The likes of @Elliot G., who has been an audiophile all his life, fail to appreciate that you can love music, live and recorded, without any real interest in equipment at all, let alone any audiophile credentials.

I just spoke to him a few minutes ago. He was about to get on a plane to Mexico. He has a very fulfilling life without hifi.

 

[Al M.]

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The likes of @Elliot G., who has been an audiophile all his life, fail to appreciate that you can love music, live and recorded, without any real interest in equipment at all, let alone any audiophile credentials.

Also, one can love the high end with headphones.

 

[ssfas]

I appreciate your points and I congratulate you on having such lovely children. I don’t agree with your points about Elliot being out of touch or condescending. You are taking your data points and extrapolating it to form an opinion about Elliot who has a great deal more data points collected over decades. It’s certainly ok to disagree with his opinion but I don’t think your labeling his the way you did is very fair.

I hope my kids are no more "lovely" than anyone else's. Fortunately their values don't revolve around money and accumulation of wealth and stuff. Quite the opposite.

@Elliot G. :
You are looking at this only through your eyes as a hobbyist. You aren't part of the audio business.
What does someone running a store selling uber high-end hifi learn about the average music-loving kid who buys their audio equipment (usually headphones) on Amazon?

Young people were sold headphones, ear buds, ipads, ipods and cell phones.
So were old people, and middle aged people like me. I make sure I go for a walk every day with my phone and Sony MX5 wireless headphones.

They listen to music as an accessory not as something to do as a singular act. That is what happened.
Yes, because they still have a social life. They listen to music with their friends, and are very knowledgeable. Some of their friends are in the music business (sound engineers etc.)

They bought what celebs told them to have.
No they don't - but audiophiles often live and die on the word of cult reviewers like Fremer, Atkinson etc.

I am in this business I see what walks in and what calls on the phone.
He's in the high-end business, a remote little corner of the hifi industry few people know about.

There is little or none music education in schools
There was lots of music at my school and my kid's schools. They all had orchestras, bands etc. My younger's son's headmaster was Jacob Collier's father. Not his son's talent, but a good pianist. This is the new concert hall at my old school. In the UK we have several schools for musically gifted kids, such as the Menuhin School, Chetham's, The Purcell School, Guildhall etc. They are state funded.


FM radio largely disappeared, concerts became shows and then we are here.
BBC Radio is as popular as ever, it's much more diverse and broadcasts digitally.

It was great to see Chesky's Kid make something entry level and I wish him much success if he can market it to bring first time buyers into audio stores where they can "experience " quality sound at some level. This is the key. In order to do that the focus on how they market must change and change drastically. It has to be cool again.

I very much doubt that the future is audio stores selling massive audio systems. My elder son is a product designer and one of his first jobs was with the company that makes these.

I have them throughout my house. I have them throughout my house. I listen through them far more than my hifi.

They are sound and light, contain a complete audio system (75w Class D, Roon Ready, Amazon, Alexa, Spotify, Tidal, Radio, uPnP etc.), are voice controlled. Go to 40 Hz -6db, flat response, brilliant DSP. Cost $500 each. The speaker was designed by Laurence Dickie, of B&W and Vivid fame. Roon asked me to do a blog.

Roon Community Reviews: Zuma Lumisonic, the Ultimate Wireless Multi-room System - Roon Labs

Roon Community contributor Steven44 graciously contributed the following review. Roon Editorial staff added layout and minor editing to convert the forum posts to a review format. Overview Zuma Lumisonic is a state-of-the-art Roon Ready lighting and sound system. Each light/sound unit is an...

blog.roonlabs.com

 

[microstrip]

I think there is already some integration of sound apps like Shazam and SoundHound with Roon or other streaming services that gets you close to that. I’d be happy if my Shazam history was recognized by Roon.

As to a cool AI trick, I look forward to just telling Roon to analyze my library (or recent listening history) and as an example “go find music from Mongolia” that matches my listening habits. (Or wherever, the idea is discovering music I’d never stumble on myself.) Roon Radio already does this to a degree, and I love some of the stuff Roon finds.

Here we disagree Bob. The first thing I disable in any informatic systems is any ability to make suggestions. I am not an expert in that matters, but people who are have explained me the power and dangers of AI techniques.

As you say, there is a large probability that you will like stuff Roon finds. But you are being shaped by an AI bot, that knows a lot more than you can imagine.

I am extremely favorable to the net and to the proper use of search engines - since long I am a frequent user of advanced google. But I try to do my best to control what I get and complement it with alternative sources.

 

[hopkins]

.

I very much doubt that the future is audio stores selling massive audio systems. My elder son is a product designer and one of his first jobs was with the company that makes these.
View attachment 149488
I have them throughout my house. I have them throughout my house. I listen through them far more than my hifi.

They are sound and light, contain a complete audio system (75w Class D, Roon Ready, Amazon, Alexa, Spotify, Tidal, Radio, uPnP etc.), are voice controlled. Go to 40 Hz -6db, flat response, brilliant DSP. Cost $500 each. The speaker was designed by Laurence Dickie, of B&W and Vivid fame. Roon asked me to do a blog.

Roon Community Reviews: Zuma Lumisonic, the Ultimate Wireless Multi-room System - Roon Labs

Roon Community contributor Steven44 graciously contributed the following review. Roon Editorial staff added layout and minor editing to convert the forum posts to a review format. Overview Zuma Lumisonic is a state-of-the-art Roon Ready lighting and sound system. Each light/sound unit is an...

blog.roonlabs.com

These are very appealing. Brilliant design and functionality.

 

[JiminGa]

I hope my kids are no more "lovely" than anyone else's. Fortunately their values don't revolve around money and accumulation of wealth and stuff. Quite the opposite.

@Elliot G. :
You are looking at this only through your eyes as a hobbyist. You aren't part of the audio business.
What does someone running a store selling uber high-end hifi learn about the average music-loving kid who buys their audio equipment (usually headphones) on Amazon?

Young people were sold headphones, ear buds, ipads, ipods and cell phones.
So were old people, and middle aged people like me. I make sure I go for a walk every day with my phone and Sony MX5 wireless headphones.

They listen to music as an accessory not as something to do as a singular act. That is what happened.
Yes, because they still have a social life. They listen to music with their friends, and are very knowledgeable. Some of their friends are in the music business (sound engineers etc.)

They bought what celebs told them to have.
No they don't - but audiophiles often live and die on the word of cult reviewers like Fremer, Atkinson etc.

I am in this business I see what walks in and what calls on the phone.
He's in the high-end business, a remote little corner of the hifi industry few people know about.

There is little or none music education in schools
There was lots of music at my school and my kid's schools. They all had orchestras, bands etc. My younger's son's headmaster was Jacob Collier's father. Not his son's talent, but a good pianist. This is the new concert hall at my old school. In the UK we have several schools for musically gifted kids, such as the Menuhin School, Chetham's, The Purcell School, Guildhall etc. They are state funded.
View attachment 149487

FM radio largely disappeared, concerts became shows and then we are here.
BBC Radio is as popular as ever, it's much more diverse and broadcasts digitally.

It was great to see Chesky's Kid make something entry level and I wish him much success if he can market it to bring first time buyers into audio stores where they can "experience " quality sound at some level. This is the key. In order to do that the focus on how they market must change and change drastically. It has to be cool again.

I very much doubt that the future is audio stores selling massive audio systems. My elder son is a product designer and one of his first jobs was with the company that makes these.
View attachment 149488
I have them throughout my house. I have them throughout my house. I listen through them far more than my hifi.

They are sound and light, contain a complete audio system (75w Class D, Roon Ready, Amazon, Alexa, Spotify, Tidal, Radio, uPnP etc.), are voice controlled. Go to 40 Hz -6db, flat response, brilliant DSP. Cost $500 each. The speaker was designed by Laurence Dickie, of B&W and Vivid fame. Roon asked me to do a blog.

Roon Community Reviews: Zuma Lumisonic, the Ultimate Wireless Multi-room System - Roon Labs

Roon Community contributor Steven44 graciously contributed the following review. Roon Editorial staff added layout and minor editing to convert the forum posts to a review format. Overview Zuma Lumisonic is a state-of-the-art Roon Ready lighting and sound system. Each light/sound unit is an...

blog.roonlabs.com

I hope you know that I meant "lovely" as a compliment. Truly. I personally think it's not a stretch to imagine that someone in the business for 40 years does indeed have a decent understanding of the average music loving teenager. You disagree. That's fine. Also, remember this site is literally called "What's best". Of course it focuses on what you call a "remote little corner" of the business.

 

[Kingrex]

One thing I am curious about is how AI will affect "high end audio". Will a "super intelligent" AI (which is around the corner) help in designing better equipment? Will this equipment, as a result become more affordable? In other industries, AI is already being used to assist in designing new materials and new products.

Could AI, for example, design a speaker from A to Z - cabinet, drivers, crossovers - in ways that may not have been imagined today? Why not...

What about speaker placement and room treatment? Imagine filming your living room and having AI determine the optimal speaker and listening spot based on recognition of all your room's parameters and speaker attributes, and provide recommendations on acoustic treatment?

That is what BACCH does.
Its listens to the room from the inside of your ear, hearing what you hear, and tunes the stereo.
It is also an active crossover of sorts. You could hook 6 amps up to it, attach it to 2 speakers with 6 drivers (no crossover, direct coupled amp to driver) and it would blend the drivers and speakers almost perfectly. There may be very little listening tuning to do.

The issue is its doing it all in the digital domain and analog guys would flip.
My sense and miniscule inside perception is, BACCH is going to be sold to a large conglomerate. They will integrate it into cars, AV, computers speakers etc . It will be for the masses. It will be one of those leap forward in technology.

 

[Kingrex]

Congratulations you were a good dad. What about the other hundreds of millions that did not get this? Everything is about YOU. Its really sad to me that you really cant read very well and just make up shit. IGNORE I am tired of you and your BS.

The YOU in your statement is really all of the members of Whatbestforum. Lets not waste our time with hundreds of millions. Its Billons of people enjoy music every day. Its the YOU, which is us that seem to think there is something wrong with the music industry because there are not more companies selling expensive stereo. Only the YOU, as in us have a conversation over whether its worth it to spend $300,000 on a DAC. Only the YOU, as in us question whether music is a relevant as when we were young because we don't see youth at audio shows staring at million $$$ systems with stars in their eyes saying, if only I could have one of those.

Lets be real. Would this be a good dad. Son says to father. Dad, I got a raise. I'm doing ok. But the schools suck and I have to send my kids to private school. I have to save for their college because it so expensive today. Taxes are eating into my paycheck with every levy the city council passes. My car is getting old and the wifes car lease is almost up. The house needs to be painted and neither of us have time to mow the lawn or clean the house. We need to spend what little we have to hire help. Fathers response. Well son. Maybe you should spend $28,000 on a new pair of speaker to put in your living room so you can relax after work and decompress.

The crux of enjoying audio is the music. There is nothing wrong with the industry. Last time Taylor Swift came to Seattle the city was partly shut down as almost 150,000 people descended on the city to see the concert. I don't know of a single person of any age that does not have a favorite music artist. They all hear the music somehow. Because they have clearly responded to this thread title and said, IT NOT WORTH IT, does not mean they don't love music and listen in their own way. Maybe you would be one of the rich people if you realized what they liked, stated a internet only business and sold hundreds of thousands of headphones, earbuds and $70 streaming music cubes that double as computer speakers. You would laugh all the way to the bank. You chose the path you are on. Your probably happy with it. But don't try and bring others down insinuating the lack of sales of high $$$ audio equipment is a negative reflection on the WORLDS love and absorption of music. Everyone listens. They just decided, Its Not Worth It to spend high $$ on audio equipment.

 

[Holmz]

Not the ones I've used! Unlike 'full range' drivers in loudspeakers, the drivers in headphones don't have the Doppler effect distortions since the excursion on them is so low- on account of how close your ears are to the driver. So you get the immediacy 'full range' drivers can exhibit, but without them falling apart when you crank the volume.

And no higher or low orders cross overs… so the immediacy is also perhaps tied into “no XO”?

 

[ssfas]

These are very appealing. Brilliant design and functionality.

My primary interest was a smart lighting system when we were “remodelling“ our house. The product was designed in complete secrecy and launched a week after our builders started work. It’s a genius product in many ways. Besides the extraordinary technology built into the product, the lighting is superb as well as close to audiophile sound as you could wish for, they are only 135 mm deep, draw only 8w of power, so multiple units can be installed on an existing lighting ring. We installed 50 units in a morning. One of the main objectives was to largely eliminate the crazy cost of most intelligent/home automation sound in light installations. If I didn’t enjoy vinyl, I could happily rely on this system without a hi-fi system. I also use it as a surround cinema system using AirPlay from an Apple TV+.

 

[ssfas]

I hope you know that I meant "lovely" as a compliment. Truly. I personally think it's not a stretch to imagine that someone in the business for 40 years does indeed have a decent understanding of the average music loving teenager. You disagree. That's fine. Also, remember this site is literally called "What's best". Of course it focuses on what you call a "remote little corner" of the business.

I read his CV on his company website. His career has been mostly or entirely in high end. He refers to his relationship with Harry Pearson, who effectively kind the expression high-end.

If you spend your life selling Ferrari and Lamborghini, why would you know anything about the market for cheap little town cars?