Another Power Article Based On What

[microstrip]

(...) I have tried.twisting just the hot and neutral. (...) I twisted the hot and neutral but not the ground. I left the 2 grounds loose. When I measure mV neutral to ground, I had 0 on both legs.

From the theoretical point of view of physics it is the correct way to do it - the ground wire should be at less two feet away from the twisted cables for optimum performance. But usually this practice is now allowed by codes - the ground wire must be put in the same conduit.

For reference we can look to the final part of the classic https://www.jensen-transformers.com...est-of-Story-Whitlock-Fox-Generic-Version.pdf , where powe and mains are addressed. I am trying to remember the name of the author of another reference article on the subject who has nice graphs on interference versus ground wire distance, I will post it if I manage to do it!

 

[Kingrex]

From the theoretical point of view of physics it is the correct way to do it - the ground wire should be at less two feet away from the twisted cables for optimum performance. But usually this practice is now allowed by codes - the ground wire must be put in the same conduit.

For reference we can look to the final part of the classic https://www.jensen-transformers.com...est-of-Story-Whitlock-Fox-Generic-Version.pdf , where powe and mains are addressed. I am trying to remember the name of the author of another reference article on the subject who has nice graphs on interference versus ground wire distance, I will post it if I manage to do it!

Thats a good paper. Part of my reference library.

 

[TonyW]

Putting paste on wires for soldering or welding is fine, but not good for mechanical connections. He even says in the article the silver wants to flow to the other pole. Tin is notorious for growing fingers to the other pole although it takes years. A proper mechanical connection such as a crimp or a clamp like a speaker terminal or the screw terminal on the side of an outlet should make a gas tight seal. It should deform the copper wire. When that is achieved the connection will not deteriorate over time and the joint will measure less than 10 microohms. Even with wire flexing a properly fixed wire joint will hold tight. If they did deteriorate over time, a lot of buildings and cars would have burned by now.

Failure to achieve a gas tight seal either by the crimp joint cracking due to too much crimping force or size mismatch or not clamping hard enough on the wire by hand or with a screw driver or wrench is the cause of deteriorating connections.

I don’t like banana connectors- I don’t think they have enough contact pressure and I tolerate spades only because reusing expensive cables would mean cutting the deformed ends of the copper wire off each time I make a connection with them. But if you look at my spades they are deformed some. The pin connections on XLR plugs have small springs to make a contact but I like to clean the pins every few years because they are not as robust as a screw down clamp. Don’t put gunk on XLR pins. Bad idea.

 

[TonyW]

PS. I have a lot of experience with connectors (not in a good way) in automotive and aerospace. Crimp joints need strict process controls which requires sectioning them periodically to insure a proper crimp is being made. I’ve watched some videos on YouTube of high end audio cable makers and have yet to see any process controls or equipment to ensure their crimps are being done properly. Hand crimp tools are fine but must be checked on a regular basis. And the only way to insure a good crimp is to section it. Destructive testing on an audit basis is required.

Just saying.

 

[Chrisl]

Well I thought the idea of twisting romex for emi and rf would work, surprised it's not effective for both.

I'm on time now for the end of feb. to have our new service panel and subpanel installed (Our house caught fire in the end of '23) along with dedicated lines. Super excited for both the new service and for the rebuild finally happening! I'm following some basic ideas from Rex.

 

[DasguteOhr]

PS. I have a lot of experience with connectors (not in a good way) in automotive and aerospace. Crimp joints need strict process controls which requires sectioning them periodically to insure a proper crimp is being made. I’ve watched some videos on YouTube of high end audio cable makers and have yet to see any process controls or equipment to ensure their crimps are being done properly. Hand crimp tools are fine but must be checked on a regular basis. And the only way to insure a good crimp is to section it. Destructive testing on an audit basis is required.

Just saying.

Mostly more the user failure then the equipment from my point of view. it is a good crimping tool, then you can replace individual elements. With cheap tools, you can only throw them away. If you buy cheap, you buy twice.

 

[TonyW]

Mostly more the user failure then the equipment from my point of view. it is a good crimping tool, then you can replace individual elements. With cheap tools, you can only throw them away. If you buy cheap, you buy twice.

Proper hand crimp tools will not let the user make a bad crimp. But the tools still have to be monitored and adjusted for wear and tear. And set up still requires sectioning of a crimp to insure it has been done properly.
Sure, the stuff we do at home is totally out of control and for one offs we are likely to be fine. We might detect a problem in sound quality down the road or worst case something catches fire…. I hope not.

 

[TonyW]

Well I thought the idea of twisting romex for emi and rf would work, surprised it's not effective for both.

I'm on time now for the end of feb. to have our new service panel and subpanel installed (Our house caught fire in the end of '23) along with dedicated lines. Super excited for both the new service and for the rebuild finally happening! I'm following some basic ideas from Rex.

Twisted pairs is appropriate for signal wires. The attenuation is limited in frequency range. It does not make sense for power wires. Besides, what audio component uses 120 VAC directly from the wall without going through diodes, capacitors and inductors first?

What I’m saying is the RF or EMI noise issues we think about are well beyond our range of hearing, which twisted pairs is only good for. That RF and EMI noise can travel right through to the delicate electronics of our audio gear.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Proper hand crimp tools will not let the user make a bad crimp. But the tools still have to be monitored and adjusted for wear and tear. And set up still requires sectioning of a crimp to insure it has been done properly.
Sure, the stuff we do at home is totally out of control and for one offs we are likely to be fine. We might detect a problem in sound quality down the road or worst case something catches fire…. I hope not.

For home use, something like this from Knipex with interchangeable elements for all common plugs and wire end ferrules is sufficient.

https://www.amazon.de/5-teiliges-Crimpzange-Schrumpfschl%C3%A4uche-Aderendh%C3%BClsen-Aderendh%C3%BClsenzange/dp/B0CQZFSHLY/ref=asc_df_B0CQZFSHLY?mcid=c9d530ca33cc300ca9e971a46dc4d739&th=1&psc=1&tag=googshopde-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=697079232875&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=219992389722266783&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=t&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9044198&hvtargid=pla-2295025722871&psc=1&gad_source=1

It's important that the pliers release themselves when there is enough pressure. You wouldn't believe how many people I've seen in my life as an electrician who kept pressing until they ran out of muscle power.therefore my hint user error.

 

[TonyW]

For home use, something like this from Knipex with interchangeable elements for all common plugs and wire end ferrules is sufficient.

https://www.amazon.de/5-teiliges-Crimpzange-Schrumpfschl%C3%A4uche-Aderendh%C3%BClsen-Aderendh%C3%BClsenzange/dp/B0CQZFSHLY/ref=asc_df_B0CQZFSHLY?mcid=c9d530ca33cc300ca9e971a46dc4d739&th=1&psc=1&tag=googshopde-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=697079232875&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=219992389722266783&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=t&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9044198&hvtargid=pla-2295025722871&psc=1&gad_source=1

It's important that the pliers release themselves when there is enough pressure. You wouldn't believe how many people I've seen in my life as an electrician who kept pressing until they ran out of muscle power.therefore my hint user error.

Agreed. But the user must still apply it properly, ie correct wire gage to crimp size.

 

[Chrisl]

Twisted pairs is appropriate for signal wires. The attenuation is limited in frequency range. It does not make sense for power wires. Besides, what audio component uses 120 VAC directly from the wall without going through diodes, capacitors and inductors first?

What I’m saying is the RF or EMI noise issues we think about are well beyond our range of hearing, which twisted pairs is only good for. That RF and EMI noise can travel right through to the delicate electronics of our audio gear.

Thank you Tony for explaining that to me!

 

[Kingrex]

I don't crimp much. This is one example of when I do. I don’t like a wire nut for audio. I want the wires always facing forward. Of course this is deoxed and taped. I am landing a double duplex.

This T&B sort of sucks. I have to crimp in a few spots and I have to be conscious about pressure so as to not deform the crimp. The Ideal tool below is better. The Ideal works well on butt splices and larger ring. I do marine electrical too.

 

[Kingrex]

That T&B C crimp tool works even better inside a panel when you want to land 2 branch wires onto an AFCI breaker.

 

[TonyW]

I had a buddy in the 90s that had worked at Thomas & Betts. He designed a crimp tool back then that he was proud of. I didn't pay much attention to crimp tools back then. It would be a decade later when wire crimps would become important to me.

 

[twitch]

Nothing. Ok people are OK with the Absolute Sound publishing articles that are flawed and wrong on some levels. Lacking any real knowledge of the topic. But its ok. They are print. No one reads it anyways.

Somebody actually take TAS at face value ? shocking I tell you, just shocking .............

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...I don't know anyone at TAS. I don't have a subscription to TAS. I don't follow that mag.

However, I can say, the author of the article above, Vince G. is a strong advocate of good power and grounding solutions, and has been for a long time. That's a good thing, IMO.

I disagree with him on a few points, as I noted above. I'm good with that.

Vince has been over my place twice, for unrelated explorations, over the past month or so. We talked a wee bit about power and grounding for an MSB amp he brought to evaluate a Taiko Olympus using the new XDMI MSB output workflow with my Reference dac and DD.

On balance, for me, the article doesn't break new ground, but as new folks, and those with little knowledge of power solutions, enter the playing field, it's probably good to re-introduce some topics again.

Rex and other honchos here can refine the message, identify issues, etc. IMO. That seems OK to me. Carry on.

 

[Kingrex]

I had a buddy in the 90s that had worked at Thomas & Betts. He designed a crimp tool back then that he was proud of. I didn't pay much attention to crimp tools back then. It would be a decade later when wire crimps would become important to me.

I've always wondered about the comments about a gas tight connection. Wire that gets crimped is generally stranded. There's a lot of airspace between those strands. And squeezing wire together does not really eliminate air intrusion. It does minimize it.

 

[TonyW]

I've always wondered about the comments about a gas tight connection. Wire that gets crimped is generally stranded. There's a lot of airspace between those strands. And squeezing wire together does not really eliminate air intrusion. It does minimize it.

This shows how a good crimp should look. The wire strands are deformed to squeeze out all air. Sure, some gaps in the corners but this joint will not deteriorate over time. The middle and right crimps will eventually fail- especially if carrying power. The resistance builds up generating heat which increases resistance which generates more heat until it burns up. Once the joint exceeds 50 milliohms and is carrying over 60 Watts or so, it is well on its way to burning up. And except for the crack which can sometimes be seen on the outside, these joints all look the same from the outside. Sometimes the indents can be measured but the only way to know the crimp was done properly is to section it.

 

[Kingrex]

This shows how a good crimp should look. The wire strands are deformed to squeeze out all air. Sure, some gaps in the corners but this joint will not deteriorate over time. The middle and right crimps will eventually fail- especially if carrying power. The resistance builds up generating heat which increases resistance which generates more heat until it burns up. Once the joint exceeds 50 milliohms and is carrying over 60 Watts or so, it is well on its way to burning up. And except for the crack which can sometimes be seen on the outside, these joints all look the same from the outside. Sometimes the indents can be measured but the only way to know the crimp was done properly is to section it.
View attachment 145579

Very nice hypothetical images. It would take a skilled tradsman a lot of training and practice to make a crimp so solid. Non of the tools I have would do it. Non that I saw in the field either. Most were a bat wing or C crimp. We didn't use many terminal ends. Mechanical lugs on gear is the norm.
The tools we had did not press out the wire and crimp so perfect. They were all hydrolic and used a lot of force. They were far better than any mechanical connection like a split bolt. But non would deform the underlying stands like the image. Maybe a little.

I do like the terminations I have seen Blue Jean cables making. I think its a sonic welder. Pressure and viration I believe are used to join a wire to a terminal device. Not fully sure. That type connecting I believe is gas tight as its somewhat cold welded.

I'm pretry disappointed in my Inakustik cables as the terminal on the end is a set screw into a soldered wire end. The cables sound good. The functional technology seems primitive.

Looking at these images and thinking of what I see used in the field like wire nuts, I go back to why I like a single unbroken wire from a circuit breaker to a duplex. The least amount of breaks, the better. The best I have heard is a unbroken wire from the CB, up and out the wall and hard wires into a power strip. The power strip built like an octopus with hard wires cables from it to a IEC on the end. No duplex in the chain. Not legal. Can't do it. But works great.

 

[TonyW]

Very nice hypothetical images. It would take a skilled tradsman a lot of training and practice to make a crimp so solid. Non of the tools I have would do it. Non that I saw in the field either. Most were a bat wing or C crimp. We didn't use many terminal ends. Mechanical lugs on gear is the norm.
The tools we had did not press out the wire and crimp so perfect. They were all hydrolic and used a lot of force. They were far better than any mechanical connection like a split bolt. But non would deform the underlying stands like the image. Maybe a little.

I do like the terminations I have seen Blue Jean cables making. I think its a sonic welder. Pressure and viration I believe are used to join a wire to a terminal device. Not fully sure. That type connecting I believe is gas tight as its somewhat cold welded.

I'm pretry disappointed in my Inakustik cables as the terminal on the end is a set screw into a soldered wire end. The cables sound good. The functional technology seems primitive.

Looking at these images and thinking of what I see used in the field like wire nuts, I go back to why I like a single unbroken wire from a circuit breaker to a duplex. The least amount of breaks, the better. The best I have heard is a unbroken wire from the CB, up and out the wall and hard wires into a power strip. The power strip built like an octopus with hard wires cables from it to a IEC on the end. No duplex in the chain. Not legal. Can't do it. But works great.

We did/do millions of those crimps per year in automotive. Takes good process control and regular audits. And those are real images- photomicrographs of polished cross sections. Top grade hand crimp tools are capable of doing the job too.