SRA Van Den Hul Colibri

[BruceBW]

I used a USB microscope using the Fremer Method to set SRA.

I measure close to 96 degrees (96.jpg) with the top of the cartridge parallel to the record and got to around 92 degrees (92.jpg) with it sitting as shown in the picture. I know that that there is a lot of subjectivity and the system is prone to error, but it does sound better.

My concern is how far down the rear of the cartridge is. It seems extreme but my experience in this area is limited and first time with a VDH so hoping to hear from someone who has more experience setting one up.

is this "normal" and I am bring paranoid, or measuring it incorrectly, or ???

Question 2: thoughts on damping with this cartridge. I have it on a Kuzma Airline which should be a great match for effective mass at 13g,. It also has the option to add damping. I have to add oil to the trough so don't want to go to that trouble (and potential mess) if the consensus is it is not beneficial.

thanks

 

[Shuggie]

When the record is turning, groove friction will naturally cause the cantilever to move upwards, so static VTA of around 95 degrees is (IME) about right if we are aiming at 92 degrees when actually playing a record.

So, I suspect that this cartridge has been set up correctly by Van den Hul; and setting the headshell level, then fine tweaking by ear, is the way to go.

 

[tima]

I used a USB microscope using the Fremer Method to set SRA.

I measure close to 96 degrees (96.jpg) with the top of the cartridge parallel to the record and got to around 92 degrees (92.jpg) with it sitting as shown in the picture. I know that that there is a lot of subjectivity and the system is prone to error, but it does sound better.

My concern is how far down the rear of the cartridge is. It seems extreme but my experience in this area is limited and first time with a VDH so hoping to hear from someone who has more experience setting one up.

is this "normal" and I am bring paranoid, or measuring it incorrectly, or ???

Question 2: thoughts on damping with this cartridge. I have it on a Kuzma Airline which should be a great match for effective mass at 13g,. It also has the option to add damping. I have to add oil to the trough so don't want to go to that trouble (and potential mess) if the consensus is it is not beneficial.

I've been through the MF USB microscope set-up protocol several times. I found too many issues with it and dropped it. Be that as it may ...

Wrt the rear of the cartridge being down, what I found to watch out for with the vdH Colibri Master Sig is the suspension dragging. This would be where the cantilever get encapsulated with the vdH white suspension material just as it enters the metal tube. The Colibris are so variable in build quality that some can have that problem and some do not. A bit hard to tell from yr photo with the gridlines if that is happening. The angle of the top of the cartridge looks quite radical. It does not look 'normal' to me.

I have a Kuzma 4Point and got better performance by removing the damper tray. Don't know if that is an option on the Airline.

When you say "it does sound better" can you be more specifc?

One approach is to start with the headshell leveled or parallel to the record. Take some notes of how that sounds. Then lower or raise the rear of the arm slightly and compare -- iterate. Yeah, it is a bit tedious.

 

[mtemur]

I used a USB microscope using the Fremer Method to set SRA.

I measure close to 96 degrees (96.jpg) with the top of the cartridge parallel to the record and got to around 92 degrees (92.jpg) with it sitting as shown in the picture. I know that that there is a lot of subjectivity and the system is prone to error, but it does sound better.

It sounds better simply because what you did was right.

My concern is how far down the rear of the cartridge is. It seems extreme but my experience in this area is limited and first time with a VDH so hoping to hear from someone who has more experience setting one up.

That’s normal for many cartridge manufacturers, and more than normal—almost standard—with vdH. Inconsistency and being non-standard are hallmarks of vdH cartridges. If you check posts or YouTube videos by @J.R. Boisclair, you’ll notice that this is a common issue among cartridges—even expensive ones are not exempt.

Question 2: thoughts on damping with this cartridge. I have it on a Kuzma Airline which should be a great match for effective mass at 13g,. It also has the option to add damping. I have to add oil to the trough so don't want to go to that trouble (and potential mess) if the consensus is it is not beneficial.

Don’t damp it with silicon or an elastic shim.

 

[mtemur]

One approach is to start with the headshell leveled or parallel to the record. Take some notes of how that sounds. Then lower or raise the rear of the arm slightly and compare

Dear Tim,
I noticed something odd when I looked at the picture you shared. It might be due to the angle the photo was taken, but the cantilever should form a straight line to the motor when it’s in the groove. In my opinion, it would be a good idea to check the suspension.

 

[BruceBW]

I also notice what appears to be a sagging suspension in the picture. VTF too high?

Appreciate the responses. It is interesting that of all the parameters SRA seems to be the one that you get the most varied opinions about how to go bout setting it.

I understand that the SRA will drop a bit when in motion, but 3 degrees seems like a lot?

the damping trough has no effect unless you fil lit with oil.

In any case, I broke one of the wires off the coil so back to VDH it goes.

thanks to all

 

[Lagonda]

I also notice what appears to be a sagging suspension in the picture. VTF too high?

Appreciate the responses. It is interesting that of all the parameters SRA seems to be the one that you get the most varied opinions about how to go bout setting it.

I understand that the SRA will drop a bit when in motion, but 3 degrees seems like a lot?

the damping trough has no effect unless you fil lit with oil.

In any case, I broke one of the wires off the coil so back to VDH it goes.

thanks to all

What happened ? I have had a few snafus with my Grand Crue, but never any damage, they seem durable. Have not dared moving it to my other arm yet, always a chance of something going wrong.

 

[BruceBW]

I was cleaning dust off the cantilever after I ran it on a Cardas burn in track , and some bristles from my brush caught the wires. I don't think they were broken at that point but they were sticking way out, like they show in the picture, instead of being tucked back in, and when I (Gently) tried to push then back up it broke.

 

[PeterA]

I've been through the MF USB microscope set-up protocol several times. I found too many issues with it and dropped it. Be that as it may ...

Wrt the rear of the cartridge being down, what I found to watch out for with the vdH Colibri Master Sig is the suspension dragging. This would be where the cantilever get encapsulated with the vdH white suspension material just as it enters the metal tube. The Colibris are so variable in build quality that some can have that problem and some do not. A bit hard to tell from yr photo with the gridlines if that is happening. The angle of the top of the cartridge looks quite radical. It does not look 'normal' to me.

I have a Kuzma 4Point and got better performance by removing the damper tray. Don't know if that is an option on the Airline.

When you say "it does sound better" can you be more specifc?

One approach is to start with the headshell leveled or parallel to the record. Take some notes of how that sounds. Then lower or raise the rear of the arm slightly and compare -- iterate. Yeah, it is a bit tedious.

View attachment 149771

Tim, What VTF are you using here? The suspension on the newer Colibris is very soft so I see some deflection of my cantilevers too, but not this much. Mr. vdH suggested that break in should start with 1.4g VTF, but that final VTF should end up at a really light 1.2 or even 1.0g with the newer cartridges. Also very low antiskate like 0.5g. I agree that VTF, VTA, and antiskate should all be done by listening, in other words, under dynamic conditions.

 

[tima]

I noticed something odd when I looked at the picture you shared. It might be due to the angle the photo was taken, but the cantilever should form a straight line to the motor when it’s in the groove. In my opinion, it would be a good idea to check the suspension.

Thanks, fully aware of this.

Wrt the rear of the cartridge being down, what I found to watch out for with the vdH Colibri Master Sig is the suspension dragging. This would be where the cantilever get encapsulated with the vdH white suspension material just as it enters the metal tube. The Colibris are so variable in build quality that some can have that problem and some do not. A

This is van den Hul. it's not damage, it is Inconsistent quality.control. Plays fine, superior highs and mids, articulate but less weight in the bass. @PeterA VTF = 1.35g, which is lowest in vdH specified range.

 

[Lagonda]

Thanks, fully aware of this.



This is van den Hul. it's not damage, it is Inconsistent quality.control. Plays fine, superior highs and mids, articulate but less weight in the bass. @PeterA VTF = 1.35g, which is lowest in vdH specified range.

My Grand Crue box says tracking force 1.25 -1,45 g, sounds best at 1,38 in my system.

 

[PeterA]

My Grand Crue box says tracking force 1.25 -1,45 g, sounds best at 1,38 in my system.

Yes, my boxes say something similar. My earlier comment was based on a direct email from AJ when we discussed the latest Colibris. Mine sounds best at 1.2.

 

[BruceBW]

superior highs and mids, articulate, but less weight in the bass.

That's what I found too, wondering if the bass performance is a matter of break in , or set up, or just the way it is.

 

[tima]

My Grand Crue box says tracking force 1.25 -1,45 g, sounds best at 1,38 in my system.

Mine (Master Sig) says 1.35 - 1,50. I can reduce the sagging by going lower VTF, but the bass gets a touch lighter. My Aidas Mammoth Gold doesn't have the vdH fillagreed tippy top, but it has better overall balance.

 

[Lagonda]

That's what I found too, wondering if the bass performance is a matter of break in , or set up, or just the way it is.

My VDH cartridge has by far the most articulate bass i have heard , fast, nuanced, deep and without overhang. My Benz LpS sounds slow and deep bass focused in comparison. But the VDH can sound thin if settings are not correct, especially anti skating needs to be right or it will play sibilant, VTF of just 0,02g makes a difference between thin and right in the bass.

 

[tima]

My VDH cartridge has by far the most articulate bass i have heard , fast, nuanced, deep and without overhang. My Benz LpS sounds slow and deep bass focused in comparison. But the VDH can sound thin if settings are not correct, especially anti skating needs to be right or it will play sibilant, VTF of just 0,02g makes a difference between thin and right in the bass.

That sounds about right for the Benz, I have one too. If your GC yields deep bass I suspect that is an exception, so lucky you. ;-). You're right about setup.

That's what I found too, wondering if the bass performance is a matter of break in , or set up, or just the way it is.

I've heard a few of these and suspect that's the way it is. But some variability within and across models.

 

[Lagonda]

That sounds about right for the Benz, I have one too. If your GC yields deep bass I suspect that is an exception, so lucky you. ;-). You're right about setup.



I've heard a few of these and suspect that's the way it is. But some variability within and across models.

My speaker system is highly adaptable when setting up bass response, and the Io is a beast in the bass. The Grand Crue is just right in he bass in my system.

 

[BruceBW]

VTF of just 0,02g makes a difference between thin and right in the bass

I can also easily adjust the bass output of my bass horns, but if .02g makes that much difference, I will most likely move on from this cartridge at some point. I do not have a neutral balanced arm so as record thickness varies so varies the VTF, and by more than .02 g. I am willing to fiddle around to get things optimized, but not every time I change the record.

 

[thekong]

I would have some concern about using a Colibri with the Kuzma Airline unless it is a custom made cartridge by VDH! Granted, my experience was with the older XCP and XPP versions of the Colibri around 15-20 years ago. I was using the Colibris with the Rockport 6000 tonearm with a VTF of 1.42g. Within the 3-4 years I was using the XPP with the Rockport, I must had it retipped at least 3 times, and each time it came back with a different length cantilever. The problem was always a sagging cantilever, similar to what was shown in tima’s photo, but much worst!

So, I concluded that the horizontal effective mass of the Rockport arm was probably too heavy for the XPP! Just by the look, I would guess the Airline probably had an even higher horizontal effective mass than the Rockport 6000.

Being said that, I have auditioned a Grand Cru successfully mated with a FR66s. The pair sounded good to my ears, but I have no idea about its longevity! The owner was a longtime customer of VDH, and I believe he told VDH specifically that he would be using the cartridge with the FR66s when placing the order.

 

[thekong]

I can also easily adjust the bass output of my bass horns, but if .02g makes that much difference, I will most likely move on from this cartridge at some point. I do not have a neutral balanced arm so as record thickness varies so varies the VTF, and by more than .02 g. I am willing to fiddle around to get things optimized, but not every time I change the record.

I agree with Lagonda, the Colibri is that sensitive with VTF. When using the XPP with the Rockport arm, the sound could change from too bright to too dull within a 0.05g (1.39-1.44g) range!