Is High End Audio Gear Worth the Money?

[morricab]

It´s not a poor job of the system when you recognize issues with staging or spatiality and when you switch to another record/ album and get a proper staging, spatiality and three dimensionality you´re missing with the other record.

I never said this. Obviously some recordings don’t have a lot of spatial information. But there are many systems that do poorly in the spatial aspects regardless of recording. Then it is the system and/or room.

 

[morricab]

I respectfully beg to differ. I tend to agree with him. Not all recordings/mastering are made alike and can vary greatly between a stellar recording and a bad one (flat and 2D). I knew exactly what he was talking about. Not all recordings are equal.

All one has to do is listen to a bootleg recording from one of Bob Marley's shack recordings and then play Janelle Monáe, "Make me Feel". You can't blame the difference in the presentation on your system.

Tom

Sorry Tom but this was never the point of the discussion nor is it in contention…

 

[morricab]

Sometimes it's the pressing quality, how well the person worked with the master engraver( mutterstecher) on the LP matrix. This can significantly change the channel separation and thus the space formation.View attachment 153646

Yes and so what? Again this was never the point nor in dispute that the recording matters.

 

[treitz3]

Our apologies. We'll be sure to clear our posts with you first. Geez...

Tom

 

[Anton D]

Sometimes it's the pressing quality, how well the person worked with the master engraver( mutterstecher) on the LP matrix. This can significantly change the channel separation and thus the space formation.View attachment 153646

Man, that pic must be from they engraved the grooves by hand.

 

[PeterA]

Apriori means logically independent of experience. Knowledge gained through reason alone is apriori knowledge.
Aposteriori knowledge is gained through experience and observation.

Your claim that you have an image of an oboe when you hear a recording is predicated on your knowing from experience how an oboe sounds. The timbre and dynamic of the sound you hear is connected in your head with your prior experience or memory of what you associate to a particular timbre and dynamic. That you visualize that it is an oboe -- in your head -- is based on your immediate hearing and your associative memory to construct the image. Only the reproduced sound comes from the LP, not the oboe image. A three dimensional image is not on the LP.

I used to play the clarinet badly when I took lessons as a teenager. I know the sound of a clarinet. I am now listening to a clarinet and piano recording. As I sit here, listening to the music, I do not conjure up an image of a clarinet, or even someone playing the clarinet to the left of the piano. What I hear is a sound and the energy filling the room produced by my system in my room from the information on the recording. That sound simply reminds me of the sound of a clarinet from my memory of taking lessons and hearing someone play the clarinet in her performance in front of me.

I could force myself to try to imagine images in front of me, but I’m really just hearing sounds sprayed out in front of me coming from what seem to be specific locations in space. They have scale and volume, and location and expanding energy from an area of origin. They do seem dimensional, but they’re not really images unless I force myself to imagine them.

 

[Al M.]

I could force myself to try to imagine images in front of me, but I’m really just hearing sounds sprayed out in front of me coming from what seem to be specific locations in space. They have scale and volume, and location and expanding energy from an area of origin. They do seem dimensional, but they’re not really images unless I force myself to imagine them.

You describe well what is similar to my experiences, Peter.

The images are there if you listen for them, but that is not what I usually concentrate on.

 

[tima]

I could force myself to try to imagine images in front of me, but I’m really just hearing sounds sprayed out in front of me coming from what seem to be specific locations in space. They have scale and volume, and location and expanding energy from an area of origin. They do seem dimensional, but they’re not really images unless I force myself to imagine them.

Timbre + dynamics from the LP. What happens in your head is a result of your experience and your ability to geo-locate. Recognition of what you hear as the sound of a clarinet does not require generating or recalling an image of a clarinet. I think that location or locating has a dimensional element in terms of relative location, one source (clarinet) in relation to another (piano).

 

[PeterA]

Timbre + dynamics from the LP. What happens in your head is a result of your experience and your ability to geo-locate. Recognition of what you hear as the sound of a clarinet does not require generating or recalling an image of a clarinet. I think that location or locating has a dimensional element in terms of relative location, one source (clarinet) in relation to another (piano).

Tim, or simply the solo piano being played. There is no relative position to any other instruments yet the sound seems to originate from a location in front of me, and it has dimension and distance. I could describe to someone sitting next to me where I think the piano sound is located and roughly how big it is. But it is not an image of a piano. It is similar to what I experience when listening to a solo piano in a space in front of me when I close my eyes.

The sound is dimensional, so I understand why people tend to describe it as 3-D. Calling it an actual image though is a stretch for me. It is simply a recognition that I am hearing a piano being played through my system of a certain size.

The size does not change with adjustments to the volume. The music just gets louder. That is why I wrote elsewhere that a key factor for presence is the ability to adjust the volume to a level that matches the scale of the piano on the recording as it is presented in the room.

 

[hopkins]

Timbre + dynamics from the LP.

Good start.

What happens in your head is a result of your experience and your ability to geo-locate.

Hard to disagree. What did PeterA have for breakfast? I wonder if that could give us some insights on his appreciation of the sound.

Recognition of what you hear as the sound of a clarinet does not require generating or recalling an image of a clarinet.

I had to read that one over again several times, and finally gave up on trying to understand what you meant here. If I hear a cat meowing, I don't need to picture a cat to know it's the sound of a cat? Can I picture a dog and still know it's a cat? Can I picture nothing? Are there dogs that meow or cats that bark? I'm lost ...

I think that location or locating has a dimensional element in terms of relative location, one source (clarinet) in relation to another (piano).

Very insightful. I hope you did not stay up all night to come up with that one.

 

[hopkins]

Tim, or simply the solo piano being played. There is no relative position to any other instruments yet the sound seems to originate from a location in front of me, and it has dimension and distance. I could describe to someone sitting next to me where I think the piano sound is located and roughly how big it is. But it is not an image of a piano. It is similar to what I experience when listening to a solo piano in a space in front of me when I close my eyes.

The sound is dimensional, so I understand why people tend to describe it as 3-D. Calling it an actual image though is a stretch for me. It is simply a recognition that I am hearing a piano being played through my system of a certain size.

The size does not change with adjustments to the volume. The music just gets louder. That is why I wrote elsewhere that a key factor for presence is the ability to adjust the volume to a level that matches the scale of the piano on the recording as it is presented in the room.

What did you have for breakfast ?

 

[PYP]

This discussion reminds me of a conversation after I saw the movie Avatar. It had just been released. The person asked how it was (regarding 3D effect). It was very cool, I responded. Now I see everthing in 3D.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Man, that pic must be from they engraved the grooves by hand.

That's okay; the final inspection before pressing records has been done this way for 100 years, and it will probably still be done this way in 100 years. Except for the DMM.
a short video about it, unfortunately only in German. But pictures say more than 1000 words. Skip to 1.02 min in the video

 

[DasguteOhr]

Yes and so what? Again this was never the point nor in dispute that the recording matters.

It's not the speakers' fault. Every reasonably well-constructed speaker for €200 creates a sound illusion. The problem lies in the speaker's placement; everyone's perception is different, and so is the recording quality.

 

[morricab]

Tim, or simply the solo piano being played. There is no relative position to any other instruments yet the sound seems to originate from a location in front of me, and it has dimension and distance. I could describe to someone sitting next to me where I think the piano sound is located and roughly how big it is. But it is not an image of a piano. It is similar to what I experience when listening to a solo piano in a space in front of me when I close my eyes.

The sound is dimensional, so I understand why people tend to describe it as 3-D. Calling it an actual image though is a stretch for me. It is simply a recognition that I am hearing a piano being played through my system of a certain size.

The size does not change with adjustments to the volume. The music just gets louder. That is why I wrote elsewhere that a key factor for presence is the ability to adjust the volume to a level that matches the scale of the piano on the recording as it is presented in the room.

You try to stretch things too far. Something that is dimensional (length, width and height) will by definition be a 3D object…whether real or a mental perception.
On a good piano recording, for example, the sound perceived not only has dimension, it has structure…hammers on strings, spatial differences in string lengths (where low notes will come from a longer width in the sound field than higher notes), sound board, pedal action etc. If this doesn’t evoke at least a vague image in your mind of a piano then something is wrong.

 

[morricab]

It's not the speakers' fault. Every reasonably well-constructed speaker for €200 creates a sound illusion. The problem lies in the speaker's placement; everyone's perception is different, and so is the recording quality.

I never said it was the speakers fault…although it can be. I have heard lots of expensive speakers that are not exceptional in this ability. Room and position are of course factors. I tend to find though it is more the electronics and power that impact dimensionality of image and space.
I don’t want to talk about recordings anymore…it’s just too obvious a point.
Everyone’s perception is slightly different,, assuming we are talking about healthy people and not those with disorders or injuries. But only slightly.
I have found in numerous listening sessions with friends there is much more convergence than divergence on WHAT is being heard. Preferences have a larger divergence.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Everyone’s perception is slightly different,, assuming we are talking about healthy people and not those with disorders or injuries.

Do you have the audiophile 'disease'?​

The audiophile "disease" was identified more than a half century ago in Time magazine, but there's still no cure in sight.

Steve Guttenberg
Aug. 26, 2008 6:55 a.m. PT

 

[Rexp]

It's not the speakers' fault. Every reasonably well-constructed speaker for €200 creates a sound illusion. The problem lies in the speaker's placement; everyone's perception is different, and so is the recording quality.

You're confusing mediocre sound illusion with precise 3D imaging which implies you haven't actually heard 3D. I didn't experience it until I got to own a high-end store and play around with hundreds of speaker designs.

 

[Amir]

Brad, I agree with you even poorly/harsh/awful cd records are not 2D (I mean 2D image) and the 3D image reproduction is the art of high performance playbacks. Many modern super expensive systems can not give us 3D image so I think (maybe I am wrong) 3D image comes from simple minimal designs like low power SET systems. Simplicity is the main factor for accurate phase/time response.
I agree with you 3D image is more related to electronics not speaker.

The problem is me and you can not describe 3D image for others because it is a subjective term.
I think some subjective parameters are not easy to describe for example “Pace”. Before more discussion we should try to describe what 3D image means.

Again and again speaker position, room shape and speaker room interaction affect on soundstage not image.

 

[tima]

Now, if you are unable to get 3D images with at least some recordings from your listening sessions then either A) Your system is incorrectly decoding the LP information or B) Something is wrong with your perception mechanism.

On a good piano recording, for example, the sound perceived not only has dimension, it has structure…hammers on strings, spatial differences in string lengths (where low notes will come from a longer width in the sound field than higher notes), sound board, pedal action etc If this doesn’t evoke at least a vague image in your mind of a piano then something is wrong.

No problem sharing your different experiences but you do your argument no credit with these remarks that someone else's system or their ability to perceive has something wrong with it if they don't experience similar to what you claim to experience.

What 3D image would someone have of an instrument they've never seen before?