So, you haven’t heard two channel stereo recreate a sense of space like a concert hall or cathedral?? Interesting….
Is High End Audio Gear Worth the Money?
- Thread starter Ron Resnick
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Sensing height in the soundscape is important to me — both live and in my room. I imagine the sound waves reaching skyward.
Having tall speakers makes this dimension sound natural, though I wish I had a taller ceiling than 9’. When I had shorter speakers, the sense of height was there, but by comparison, seemed more of a psycho-acoustic magic trick.
Never mind a huge vault like space of a church, which most systems can’t do well. Instruments have size and different heights off the ground that readily delineated in good recordings/systems…this plus width and depth….of the image is a 3D image.
Where you say church a really good exsample for that is cowboy junkies -trinity session.phantastic recording.
THE COWBOYS JUNKIES – THE TRINITY SESSION ALBUM
The trinity session is a music album released in 1988 by a Canadian alternative country/folk rock band called The Cowboy Junkies. The Trinity Session was recorded in one single day using one…
emmanuellodublog.wordpress.com
While soundstage height is important, it does not require tall speakers. Tall speakers can also do a flat soundstage. Possibly your shorter speakers aren’t good or poorly set up or you don’t have analog
Videos below
Post in thread 'Soundstage Reproduction and Scale: Does Speaker Size Matter?'
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...e-does-speaker-size-matter.35608/post-1055869
Tima, I think the stereophile article or any other technical reference book about stereo sound has no relation to our discussion. The subjective terms like “texture”, “pace”, “dynamic”, “3D image” all are about human mind sound processing not objective terms.
I am not saying ^that^.
I’m saying that it is just difficult if the ceiling is high and there are no reflective surfaces.
Rooms with slope ceilings may be better or worse, I am not sure.
It is pretty clear that a speaker with a wide radiation pattern, and with walls to the sides and behind, sort of make things easier to get sounds that seem to be coming from outside the speakers.
The height may be more difficult.
Here's a reviewer describing how a good preamp reveals soundstage/imaging:
'My next musical selection was Bob Marley’s “Is This Love,” which was recorded in a large outdoor arena. I use this cut to evaluate a preamplifier’s ability with two spatial qualities: 1) How it replicates the height, width, and depth of the soundstage. Also, how does it locate the individual player’s position on that stage? Does it provide “air” around the players, giving them a sense of three-dimensional imaging? 2) What Ihave recently started calling “sound space” are the ambient cues, reflections, and reverbs of the acoustic space in which the music was recorded. This gives you cues, not of the music, but allows you to know if it was recorded in a studio, a symphonic hall, a small jazz club, a church, or an outdoor arena. In a world-class preamplifier, if the rest of your system is up to it, your engagement with the music will dramatically increase because you will easily hear both the music and the space in which it was recorded.'
www.stereotimes.com
'My next musical selection was Bob Marley’s “Is This Love,” which was recorded in a large outdoor arena. I use this cut to evaluate a preamplifier’s ability with two spatial qualities: 1) How it replicates the height, width, and depth of the soundstage. Also, how does it locate the individual player’s position on that stage? Does it provide “air” around the players, giving them a sense of three-dimensional imaging? 2) What Ihave recently started calling “sound space” are the ambient cues, reflections, and reverbs of the acoustic space in which the music was recorded. This gives you cues, not of the music, but allows you to know if it was recorded in a studio, a symphonic hall, a small jazz club, a church, or an outdoor arena. In a world-class preamplifier, if the rest of your system is up to it, your engagement with the music will dramatically increase because you will easily hear both the music and the space in which it was recorded.'
Backert Labs Rhythm 1.4 tube preamplifier By Terry London
I have been a long-time admirer of Backert Labs, which is located in Hockessin, Delaware. This company exclusively designs and hand-builds reference-level, in both the quality of internal components and chassis materials, some of the highest-performing tube-based line stages found on the market...
www.stereotimes.com
And the same reviewer describing a speakers imaging ability:
'Any loudspeaker considered a world-class reference should easily pull off the illusion of disappearing and floating a panoramic sound stage in front of the listener. The Arno 40 loudspeaker accomplishes this feat with ease and adds the following sonic characteristics. Depending on the recording, the soundstage’s height, depth, and width were produced to the point that you experienced being magically transported to the music venue where the recording was made. The space/air between each musician was precisely and realistically created in a three-dimensional layered soundstage. Each image had a solidity/density that created the illusion of a realistically sized musician performing in front of me on stage. All of this is presented as an interwoven tapestry of music without sounding artificial or mechanical.
When I cued up Count Basie’s recording of Analogue Production’s “Farmers Market Barbecue,” the Count and his big band were not just spread out in a natural sitting arrangement for a big band. Still, the total transparency offered by the Arno 40s allowed the reflections of the rhythm section on the sound studio’s back and side walls to appear from almost behind my sitting position. This immersed me in the illusion that I was sitting in the front row of this magnificent swinging big band. Can the Arno 40 loudspeakers scale from the quietest musical passages to the loudest crescendos? This recording answered that question. With ease and effortlessness, the Arno 40 loudspeakers tracked the highest dB levels without struggle or strain.'
www.stereotimes.com
'Any loudspeaker considered a world-class reference should easily pull off the illusion of disappearing and floating a panoramic sound stage in front of the listener. The Arno 40 loudspeaker accomplishes this feat with ease and adds the following sonic characteristics. Depending on the recording, the soundstage’s height, depth, and width were produced to the point that you experienced being magically transported to the music venue where the recording was made. The space/air between each musician was precisely and realistically created in a three-dimensional layered soundstage. Each image had a solidity/density that created the illusion of a realistically sized musician performing in front of me on stage. All of this is presented as an interwoven tapestry of music without sounding artificial or mechanical.
When I cued up Count Basie’s recording of Analogue Production’s “Farmers Market Barbecue,” the Count and his big band were not just spread out in a natural sitting arrangement for a big band. Still, the total transparency offered by the Arno 40s allowed the reflections of the rhythm section on the sound studio’s back and side walls to appear from almost behind my sitting position. This immersed me in the illusion that I was sitting in the front row of this magnificent swinging big band. Can the Arno 40 loudspeakers scale from the quietest musical passages to the loudest crescendos? This recording answered that question. With ease and effortlessness, the Arno 40 loudspeakers tracked the highest dB levels without struggle or strain.'
Rosso Fiorentino Arno 40 loudspeaker by Terry London
A recent acquaintance, Scott, an ardent musical lover and audiophile with excellent "ears" regarding the performance of high-end components, asked me if I had ever heard of a pair of Rosso Fiorentino loudspeakers. The answer, until this review, was no. However, over the years, numerous readers...
www.stereotimes.com
Which is why double or even treble stacked Quad 57’s can prove to be quite a revelation.Since speakers are usually very limited in the vertical plane, they usually collapse significantly by +-10 degrees. The distance between the speakers and ear height come into play. If you have the right height, the ear at the height between the tweeter and the midrange driver, then I completely agree that you can hear the size of a singer or instrument at this height.
"or is the earth a disc after all i don't know"
When I cued up Count Basie’s recording of Analogue Production’s “Farmers Market Barbecue,” the Count and his big band were not just spread out in a natural sitting arrangement for a big band. Still, the total transparency offered by the Arno 40s allowed the reflections of the rhythm section on the sound studio’s back and side walls to appear from almost behind my sitting position. This immersed me in the illusion that I was sitting in the front row of this magnificent swinging big band. Can the Arno 40 loudspeakers scale from the quietest musical passages to the loudest crescendos? This recording answered that question. With ease and effortlessness, the Arno 40 loudspeakers tracked the highest dB levels without struggle or strain.'
Rosso Fiorentino Arno 40 loudspeaker by Terry London
A recent acquaintance, Scott, an ardent musical lover and audiophile with excellent "ears" regarding the performance of high-end components, asked me if I had ever heard of a pair of Rosso Fiorentino loudspeakers. The answer, until this review, was no. However, over the years, numerous readers...
I just listened to my CD version of "Farmer's Market", and I did not feel like anything was appearing "almost behind me". Either some of these reviewers tend to get carried away, or my rig "sucks", or both. That being said, it's a nice recording.
If the flutes are in front of the French horns, in my book that's portrayal in three dimensions.
When Decca recorded the Ring Cycle, the harpists and singers playing the Rhinemaidens were on a balcony over the stage. In the recording you get a sense of this, on which is commented in the book 'Ring Resounding' which was included in the box set when all the operas were issued (re-issued actually) at the same time.
Ralph, are you saying you cannot get to "the flutes are in front of the French horns" with width and depth alone ÷ timbre?
Rhinemaidens are water nymphs (mermaids).. Shieldmaidens are warriors. Don't know what act he is talking about, but if they are on a balcony my guess is you are right. On the other hand I think the Rhinemaidens appear in mid-air, so that suits a balcony.
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While it is possible that the “Ring Cycle” is a chronicle of Ralph’s cycling exploits; I think that the Decca release was more likely ‘of a Wagner thing’, and the Norse mythology and subsequent National Socialists hijacking’s (cultural appropriation) of that work.
~Holmz
Aka: Loki.
Aka: He who avoids water, sharks, stingrays, and Rhinemaidens.
Aka: Chainring cycle
I'd like to add a few more thoughts (sorry) to this question of 3d... In terms of "mental pictures", what personally "triggers" my imagination in a particular way is when I listen to a highly focused sound with really good definition, to the point where you feel you can reach out your arm and touch the musicians. It's obviously all in my head, but it only manifests itself rarely.
I have not experienced it often. I don't get it with my cheap Teufel speakers (but I still love them). I did not hear it from the Magico M5 speakers I listened to recently, for example, and not completly from the Tune Audio Anima either. I didn't quite get it from my open baffle speakers - a true source point like the Altec 755 was the champion in my book. I suspect that stereo inherently puts a limit on what can be achieved in this domain - but I could be wrong. I have yet to hear some speakers that I suspect could achieve this level of refinement (in the right setup and room).
Is it "essential" ? Not realiy, but I sometimes miss it.
I have not experienced it often. I don't get it with my cheap Teufel speakers (but I still love them). I did not hear it from the Magico M5 speakers I listened to recently, for example, and not completly from the Tune Audio Anima either. I didn't quite get it from my open baffle speakers - a true source point like the Altec 755 was the champion in my book. I suspect that stereo inherently puts a limit on what can be achieved in this domain - but I could be wrong. I have yet to hear some speakers that I suspect could achieve this level of refinement (in the right setup and room).
Is it "essential" ? Not realiy, but I sometimes miss it.
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I have only ever experienced it once and that was at Munich 2019 in the Vitus / Rockport room, they were play music from R2R it was a piano recital, I swear I could see the piano on a razed stage. I have not heard it since, most systems can create the illusion and that includes mine but none that I have heard painted such a vivid image as I heard that day. If I can get to that point with my system, I will be done as you can’t get any better than that.
Here is the room, don't know if anyone else remember going into this room in 2019 Vitus / Rockport room
Seems we’re assuming we all process 3D cues alike, maybe some have a lower 3D believability thresholds than others. And what about different ear shapes?
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