Best phono stage?

[Atmasphere]

The point is this only looks like nfb but isn't really. Normal shunt feedback requires two resistors: the shunt one, which here is the riaa network and one in series which in this case is the output impedance of the first stage. Because of the shunt, the first stage sees a frequency dependent load which matches exactly the riaa curve. It is unfair to compare this to classic voltage nfb which in most phono amps is around two or more amplification stages.

We build both zero feedback and feedback phono sections. There's nothing wrong with feedback if its properly applied. The big deal you don't want is the circuit generating ticks and pops due to high frequency overload. That is easily avoided either way.

 

[analogsa]

There's nothing wrong with feedback if its properly applied.

Never said anything was wrong. The two philosophies simply sound very different, no matter if it's phono/line or speaker level. A preference is justifiable for either type of sonic presentation; if i listened to rock/pop and rhythmical music i would also enjoy nfb circuits, but as it is i get more musical satisfaction from circuits unencumbered with loop nfb. Personal preference, nothing more.

 

[Atmasphere]

The two philosophies simply sound very different, no matter if it's phono/line or speaker level.

Actually if the feedback is properly applied you might be surprised at how similar they sound whether at the phono level or speaker level. We make both zero feedback tube amps and (designed and built in house) a class D amp which uses about 37dB of feedback and they sound remarkably similar. This is also true of our phono sections.

The key in my prior comment was 'properly applied'. If feedback is improperly applied it can cause a brighter less musical presentation.

 

[Dave777tx]

I have an open question for all the big analogue players here, it is almost a unanimous idea that the CH Precision P10 is the best Phono in the market, which if not it’s at least top, but how about other new phonos like the Esoteric E1 which also has capabilities for DS Cartridges or even a tube phono like the new Kronos, any thoughts? Options? I personally heard all this 3 and I own the DS Audio Grand Master. The one I enjoyed the most was the new Kronos but that was not fair for the other two since all 3 were very different systems. So I’d like to hear opinions from owners. Thanks

 

[Zeotrope]

I disagree which is why I didn’t buy one. The only legit reviewer who compared both the CH and the Nagra preferred the Nagra. If you need the flexibility, the CH is the way to go. I only have one tonearm so I have no need for all of the CH’s inputs.
The Nagra HD Phono is the best there is, IMO. Nagra doesn’t pay for reviews like CH does, so you won’t see Fremer or others publish reviews.

Teste 1: PRÉ DE PHONO CH PRECISION P1

Fernando Andrettefernando@clubedoaudio.com.br Ainda que a Pandemia tenha virado o mundo de cabeça para baixo, este foi o ano em que recebemos e testamos a maior quantidade […]

clubedoaudio.com.br

 

[G T Audio]

I have an open question for all the big analogue players here, it is almost a unanimous idea that the CH Precision P10 is the best Phono in the market, which if not it’s at least top, but how about other new phonos like the Esoteric E1 which also has capabilities for DS Cartridges or even a tube phono like the new Kronos, any thoughts? Options? I personally heard all this 3 and I own the DS Audio Grand Master. The one I enjoyed the most was the new Kronos but that was not fair for the other two since all 3 were very different systems. So I’d like to hear opinions from owners. Thanks

Having had most high end phono stages and preamps since the early 1980s pass through my doors, I am very surprised you are not considering a Tube phono stage? Although some are good, I have never found a solid state phono stage performed better than a good tube phono stage. I believe DS Audio are now producing a tube version of their phono energiser? Might be worth checking out if you are wedded to DS Audio cartridges...

 

[SeagoatLeo]

I've had tube phono stages and pre-amps such as the EAR 864 and 912 where the phono stages were excellent and a subminiature tube phono stage as well. I purchased the EAR 324 phono stage cheap in 2006 and didn't like it until I moved up to an entirely new system. Now, it sounds GREAT, neutral but full bodied as an EAR 912 (for phono only). It certainly isn't in the same category as the CH Precision or Nagra, neither of which I've heard. I did experience a $12K DS Audio cartridge in a less than top of their line "transformer" box and it was exceptional in every way when playing immaculate condition LPs (despite one being a U.S. Seraphim pressing). The problem was with the system which consisted of 600 watt McIntosh SS power amps and Wilson Alexx speakers or the Alexandria X-2 v.2. Although impressive, super dynamic and immaculate, I couldn't take that resolution overload for more than 20 minutes. Did the cartridge have anything to do with that (I don't remember the phono/pre-amp, I think it had black cat or other high end cabling).

 

[DasguteOhr]

Soulnote E2 will probably take the throne in terms of flexibility. Optical pickup, multiple inputs, create your own equalizer curve.

Soulnote Audio: Soulnote E-2 Phono Equalizer

www.soulnote.audio

 

[bonzo75]

I couldn't take that resolution overload for more than 20 minutes. Did the cartridge have anything to do with that (I don't remember the phono/pre-amp, I think it had black cat or other high end cabling).

The DS audio master does have very high detail with lack of emotion, sounds like great digital rather than analog. It will be interesting to listen to it with a low watt valve system

 

[Dave777tx]

I disagree which is why I didn’t buy one. The only legit reviewer who compared both the CH and the Nagra preferred the Nagra. If you need the flexibility, the CH is the way to go. I only have one tonearm so I have no need for all of the CH’s inputs.
The Nagra HD Phono is the best there is, IMO. Nagra doesn’t pay for reviews like CH does, so you won’t see Fremer or others publish reviews.

Teste 1: PRÉ DE PHONO CH PRECISION P1

Fernando Andrettefernando@clubedoaudio.com.br Ainda que a Pandemia tenha virado o mundo de cabeça para baixo, este foi o ano em que recebemos e testamos a maior quantidade […]

clubedoaudio.com.br

I do agree with your comments the biggest advantage of the p10 is the flexibility and Nagra is a top notch phono too I heart it once and I was super impressed, thanks exactly the kind of comments I want to hear

 

[Dave777tx]

Having had most high end phono stages and preamps since the early 1980s pass through my doors, I am very surprised you are not considering a Tube phono stage? Although some are good, I have never found a solid state phono stage performed better than a good tube phono stage. I believe DS Audio are now producing a tube version of their phono energiser? Might be worth checking out if you are wedded to DS Audio cartridges...

That’s other idea that I tried to imply but I guess I was not clear. The Kronos phono is tube. I do think that other tube phonos with a good match can be better than p10 I just want to know which ones and what are the pros and cons. I am not attached to DS even though I really like it. I just don’t think the DS tubes can compete with the grand master, but other brands might

 

[Perfect sense Audio]

I disagree which is why I didn’t buy one. The only legit reviewer who compared both the CH and the Nagra preferred the Nagra. If you need the flexibility, the CH is the way to go. I only have one tonearm so I have no need for all of the CH’s inputs.
The Nagra HD Phono is the best there is, IMO. Nagra doesn’t pay for reviews like CH does, so you won’t see Fremer or others publish reviews.

Teste 1: PRÉ DE PHONO CH PRECISION P1

Fernando Andrettefernando@clubedoaudio.com.br Ainda que a Pandemia tenha virado o mundo de cabeça para baixo, este foi o ano em que recebemos e testamos a maior quantidade […]

clubedoaudio.com.br

The only legit reviewer - in Brazil ?

These products are apples and oranges to a high degree. I personally consider the CH P1 (and certainly the P10) to be one of the very best and highest performing on the market which also offers a lot of configuration options and flexibility. Nagra as well as Ypsilon, Allnic and Phasemation (other SOTA contenders) are all tube based, which will give you a different perspective and experience.

 

[XV-1]

I have an open question for all the big analogue players here, it is almost a unanimous idea that the CH Precision P10 is the best Phono in the market, which if not it’s at least top, but how about other new phonos like the Esoteric E1 which also has capabilities for DS Cartridges or even a tube phono like the new Kronos, any thoughts? Options? I personally heard all this 3 and I own the DS Audio Grand Master. The one I enjoyed the most was the new Kronos but that was not fair for the other two since all 3 were very different systems. So I’d like to hear opinions from owners. Thanks

certainly not unanimous. Tang from Thailand who could afford to buy anything had the CH P10 phono, however he much preferred his EMT JPA66 so he sold his P10. no DS input thou. YMMV

 

[Atmasphere]

I have an open question for all the big analogue players here, it is almost a unanimous idea that the CH Precision P10 is the best Phono in the market, which if not it’s at least top, but how about other new phonos like the Esoteric E1 which also has capabilities for DS Cartridges or even a tube phono like the new Kronos, any thoughts? Options? I personally heard all this 3 and I own the DS Audio Grand Master. The one I enjoyed the most was the new Kronos but that was not fair for the other two since all 3 were very different systems. So I’d like to hear opinions from owners. Thanks

I don't think a claim as the one opening this post would be considered legit 'unanimously'...

For example, based on the simple fact that it has loading options for LOMC cartridges suggests it has an RFI sensitivity at its input. IMO/IME the 'best' phono sections will not have any such sensitivity.

Not saying its not a very nice unit just to be clear.

 

[Lagonda]

Soulnote E2 will probably take the throne in terms of flexibility. Optical pickup, multiple inputs, create your own equalizer curve.

Soulnote Audio: Soulnote E-2 Phono Equalizer

www.soulnote.audio

Have you heard one ?

 

[DasguteOhr]

Have you heard one ?

Yes, but I'd rather leave the sound description to others who can do it better than me. Read from post #10. I fully agree with this, a very good phono stage.

Soulnote E-2 phonostage

I am not a LP audiophile but recently have listened to a Soulnote E-2 phonostage at a friend's home. Not expensive but very well built. Most Interesting is that there are old curves for vintage LPs. http://www.kcsr.co.jp/detail_e2.html My friend demoed a vintage Argo Label Noah Ark LP to me...

www.whatsbestforum.com

P.S
If you do it cleverly, you can even correct unfavourable room influences

 

[Atmasphere]

Yes, but I'd rather leave the sound description to others who can do it better than me. Read from post #10. I fully agree with this, a very good phono stage.

Soulnote E-2 phonostage

I am not a LP audiophile but recently have listened to a Soulnote E-2 phonostage at a friend's home. Not expensive but very well built. Most Interesting is that there are old curves for vintage LPs. http://www.kcsr.co.jp/detail_e2.html My friend demoed a vintage Argo Label Noah Ark LP to me...

www.whatsbestforum.com

P.S
If you do it cleverly, you can even correct unfavourable room influences

I hope we're not going to get into that EQ curve thing again. The opening post at that link talks about using the Argo curve, sounding better then the RIAA curve. The Argo curve is for 78s. There is no way it is appropriate for LPs. IMO/IME that calls into question the validity of the poster's comments.

 

[DasguteOhr]

I hope we're not going to get into that EQ curve thing again. The opening post at that link talks about using the Argo curve, sounding better then the RIAA curve. The Argo curve is for 78s. There is no way it is appropriate for LPs. IMO/IME that calls into question the validity of the poster's comments.

Actually, there are settings for this, for old equalization curves, such as Columbia and the corresponding LP. But if you have problems with your bass in the room, for example, you can change the rolloff. I think it's smart to just try it out before you do expensive room tuning.

 

[Atmasphere]

Actually, there are settings for this, for old equalization curves, such as Columbia and the corresponding LP. But if you have problems with your bass in the room, for example, you can change the rolloff. I think it's smart to just try it out before you do expensive room tuning.

I avoided expensive room tuning by breaking up the standing wave that was limiting bass at my listening position. I did that with a couple of subwoofers placed asymmetrically in the room. Since my main speakers are flat to 20 Hz I only needed a pair of subs to pull this off. But I get your point.

When I was a kid I used the EQ settings on my H/K Citation 1 in much the same way, as if the actual tone controls on that preamp were not enough...

 

[Birdwatcher]

Please, please, don’t try to compensate your room acoustics with phono equalization curves. That’s absolutely botch.