Power Cables

[Argonaut]

http://www.theaudiobeat.com/blog/shunyata_research_medical.htm

 

[Gregadd]

Good idea. I think a request to the mods might be in order for them to move the entire thread complete with comments. They can do that.

 

[Argonaut]

Good idea. I think a request to the mods might be in order for them to move the entire thread complete with comments. They can do that.

I also considered that Greg,However I felt that making this post #1 of a new thread, may engender a fresh discussion, considering the content within the article.

 

[Gregadd]

ok

 

[Argonaut]

Or not! It may seem

 

[Dynamix]

The power conditioners and/or filters are obviously doing something to lower the noisefloor, but there's nothing in the linked article that proves that the cables are doing anything beyond connecting the various components together. So I have no idea why the OP would title this thread "Power Cables".

 

[Gregadd]

But that's the point, The cables are supposed to do "nothing."

 

[Jinjuku]

Be interesting to see Techron, SurgeX, Furman, PSAudio, APC, with their like products in the mix.

I wonder what the engineers of the medical diagnostic equipment think/take away from this.

 

[Jinjuku]

But that's the point, The cables are supposed to do "nothing."

Since the article is about multiple products and not just cables.... I don't think you can have a conversation just limited to cables in this regard.

I totally believe in conditioned power and happy to see the result (if it's independently verifiable) and scary that makers of of multi-million dollar diagnostics with expensive service contracts left that kind of noise floor performance on the cutting room floor given the pricing disparity.

Or that lower noise floor may not matter diagnostically?

 

[Gregadd]

Since the article is about multiple products and not just cables.... I don't think you can have a conversation just limited to cables in this regard.

I totally believe in conditioned power and happy to see the result (if it's independently verifiable) and scary that makers of of multi-million dollar diagnostics with expensive service contracts left that kind of noise floor performance on the cutting room floor given the pricing disparity.

Or that lower noise floor may not matter diagnostically?

I agree that something that could have life saving implications needs to be rigorously tested. Right or wrong I assume that is either being done or has already been done. Perhaps thier engineers don't believe in cables either.:b

I am always delighted when evidence emerges that an audiophile device is not "snake oil."

 

[Folsom]

The power conditioners and/or filters are obviously doing something to lower the noisefloor, but there's nothing in the linked article that proves that the cables are doing anything beyond connecting the various components together. So I have no idea why the OP would title this thread "Power Cables".

Not the best topic heading, but cables can reduce noise depending on construction. The most basic way is to have them twisted/braided. Unfortunately most are simple spiraled (cheap IEC cables etc), so there's reason to purchase/make something better.

"Twisted pair cabling is a type of wiring in which two conductors of a single circuit are twisted together for the purposes of canceling out electromagnetic interference (EMI) from external sources; for instance, electromagnetic radiation from unshielded twisted pair (UTP) cables, and crosstalk between neighboring pairs." -Wikipedia

The twisting is responsible for approximately 13-55db attenuation of noise. (There's a few things that affect this)

Because they are part of the system, the laws of physics apply to them as well so their properties can vary; which can lead to audible differences. It's probably arguable that the majority of what you need is a twist/braid and high quality ends to get 80% of what any cable could possibly offer. But many of us would pay more to get the refined results that may be rather distinguished to us in what we perceive. My personal experience is larger 12ga cables sound better than 14ga on any devices irrespective to its power consumption.

 

[Jinjuku]

I agree that something that could have life saving implications needs to be rigorously tested. Right or wrong I assume that is either being done or has already been done. Perhaps thier engineers don't believe in cables either.:b

I am always delighted when evidence emerges that an audiophile device is not "snake oil."

You will have to define which of the multiple power delivery/conditioning devices you are talking about.

Would the power conditioners with properly rated IEC power cables give the same performance?

In Cleveland I did work for a contractor for NASA. They had Zeisse (?) micrometer measuring systems that were floating on 1800 lb blocks of granite (literally floated on air). I installed 12Kva of battery bank, pure sine-wave APC power in case the electricity went out so the granite didn't come crashing down. Took up half the wall.

Used 10AWG DC (battery cables). So I totally get and respect conditioned power.

 

[Folsom]

You will have to define which of the multiple power delivery/conditionin devices you are talking about.

Would the power conditioners with properly rated IEC power cables give the same performance?

In Cleveland I did work for a contractor for NASA. They had Zeisse (?) micrometer measuring systems that were floating on 1800 lb blocks of granite (literally floated on air). I installed 12Kva of battery bank, pure sine-wave APC power in case the electricity went out so the granite didn't come crashing down. Took up half the wall.

Used 10AWG DC (battery cables). So I totally get and respect conditioned power.

Interesting story. I like them as such.

Properly rated IEC cables? What do you mean? Standard IEC cables are trash by engineering standards. They have no twisting, just spiraling. They're in direct conflict with one of the most basic of all engineering aspects for equipment that does anything with signal transmission/receiving. Also, on a scale like in your story AC wires need twisting or they can get hot. Very high power AC cables in conduit say running from one industrial building to another, can melt their high temp insulation due to running in parallel. (true personal story, and consistent in industrial settings)

A power conditioner doesn't become more or less effective due to the cable. The overall noise just goes up or down. The only other thing that could happen is something in a power conditioner could become saturated from too much noise, that a power cable could have reduced. However no such power conditioner will ever be made since it would likely also heat up your electronics due to lack of current capability required to saturate very easily.

 

[Jinjuku]

Interesting story. I like them as such.

Properly rated IEC cables? What do you mean? Standard IEC cables are trash by engineering standards.

I think you missed the part were I was asking it as a question.

 

[Folsom]

I think you missed the part were I was asking it as a question.

I suppose I don't understand, I thought I answered

 

[Jinjuku]

The question relates to measurement of two slightly difference setups:

Shunyata Power Conditioner + Properly rated and terminated Power Cords

and

Shunyata Power Conditioner + Properly rated and terminated Shunyata Power Cords.

May be they could just get the results with just Power Cables... Or just Power Conditioner... Or both. I'm curious about the permutations.

 

[Folsom]

You'll get a better measurement with the Shunyata power cord. But the difference will be less audibly by having a power conditioner, than if you were just comparing the two cords.

As examples, not actual figures... (may be close to real figures)

IEC standard we'll give it a value of -5db
Shunyata we'll give it a value of -15db
Shunyata power conditioner we'll give it a value of -40db

The math you already did in your head. As you can see the big factor is the power conditioner. But you may be been able to hear swapping cables somewhat easily without it. The effect is cumulative in measurement, but becomes a little harder to detect the lower the noise floor goes.

 

[Jinjuku]

You'll get a better measurement with the Shunyata power cord. But the difference will be less audibly by having a power conditioner, than if you were just comparing the two cords.

As examples, not actual figures... (may be close to real figures)

IEC standard we'll give it a value of -5db
Shunyata we'll give it a value of -15db
Shunyata power conditioner we'll give it a value of -40db

The math you already did in your head. As you can see the big factor is the power conditioner. But you may be been able to hear swapping cables somewhat easily without it. The effect is cumulative in measurement, but becomes a little harder to detect the lower the noise floor goes.

Eeeeck. We really don't know.

If the video can be taken at face value then it's a good thing that this is all showing up as a transfer function. Same should be able to happen at the outputs of an amp or measured speaker response.

 

[Folsom]

No, we do know. There's nothing in either powercord that's able to cause interaction problems with the power conditioner. There is no question here aside from actual figure on attenuation, which vary by frequency. Your question is answered. There is no mystery here. If you have questions as to why you can't come to the same conclusions, just ask.

 

[Jinjuku]

No, we do know. There's nothing in either powercord that's able to cause interaction problems with the power conditioner. There is no question here aside from actual figure on attenuation, which vary by frequency. Your question is answered. There is no mystery here. If you have questions as to why you can't come to the same conclusions, just ask.

So we know and IEC PC is down 5dB and the Shuynata is down 15dB?