New think piece from Roy Gregory- Thoughts?

[Elliot G.]

However, you seem reluctant to give dCS any credit on the Varese, not even acknowledging some level of innovation. I can only explain this as you being worried that Varese will take market share from Wadax and impact you financially. I see it a bit different. I think there is at this moment some very healthy competition in digital and that helps all customers. Indeed, MSB is preparing a flagship named Sentinel I have heard. I wonder what that sounds like.

This statement is positively absurd. How can I give credit to something that I have no experience with? I should do that because YOU say it is so?
I said this twice. I have nothing against any of these companies . I dont comment on what I have not heard in a serious controlled environment. I dont care what the literature said.
My comments have nothing to do with Wadax or MSB or CH or Esoteric or any others. I am not worried about Varese or anything else. They are going to do what they do. If you think that Wadax reference products represent any significant part of my revenue your smoking the wrong thing. Wadax Studio is going to kick ass and take no prisioners but 300k digital systems from whomever are a nice cherry on the sundae once in a while and not even worth discussing as part of my business.
I would argue that dcs AND msb are getting concerned that they have lost the "con" and they need to make something expensive to be considered relevant again. Maybe they can make something truly better and maybe they can't time will tell but for that to happen it needs to be done in a serious manner .
We shall see.

 

[Lee]

This statement is positively absurd. How can I give credit to something that I have no experience with? I should do that because YOU say it is so?
I said this twice. I have nothing against any of these companies . I dont comment on what I have not heard in a serious controlled environment. I dont care what the literature said.
My comments have nothing to do with Wadax or MSB or CH or Esoteric or any others. I am not worried about Varese or anything else. They are going to do what they do. If you think that Wadax reference products represent any significant part of my revenue your smoking the wrong thing. Wadax Studio is going to kick ass and take no prisioners but 300k digital systems from whomever are a nice cherry on the sundae once in a while and not even worth discussing as part of my business.
I would argue that dcs AND msb are getting concerned that they have lost the "con" and they need to make something expensive to be considered relevant again. Maybe they can make something truly better and maybe they can't time will tell but for that to happen it needs to be done in a serious manner .
We shall see.

The Varese was a surprisingly huge step up from the Vivaldi Apex. I believe the new mono DACs must be playing a role in the reduced noise and increased realism on offer.

I believe dCS was planning a new flagship for some time, even before Wadax altough I am sure Wadax helped as it sent a signal that really high priced DACs were sellable.

I’m also not sure you can claim dCS or MSB is irrelevant as my discussions suggest they have continued to sell a lot of product.

 

[andromedaaudio]

The Varese was a surprisingly huge step up from the Vivaldi Apex. I believe the new mono DACs must be playing a role in the reduced noise and increased realism on offer.

I believe dCS was planning a new flagship for some time, even before Wadax altough I am sure Wadax helped as it sent a signal that really high priced DACs were sellable.

I’m also not sure you can claim dCS or MSB is irrelevant as my discussions suggest they have continued to sell a lot of product.

Im gonna start buying DACS as soon as they top a million lol .
All these 100.000 + K dacs cant be any good..

Ps I wish i had a 100.000 K lol , then i could finally enjoy music

 

[Elliot G.]

The Varese was a surprisingly huge step up from the Vivaldi Apex. I believe the new mono DACs must be playing a role in the reduced noise and increased realism on offer.

I believe dCS was planning a new flagship for some time, even before Wadax altough I am sure Wadax helped as it sent a signal that really high priced DACs were sellable.

I’m also not sure you can claim dCS or MSB is irrelevant as my discussions suggest they have continued to sell a lot of product.

I did not claim anyone is irrelevant those are your words not mine.
The fact that their new product is better than their old product and the DACS are mono is not a technical innovation nor does it mean that is special.Those are observations and your opinions. BTW if it wasnt better that would be news worthy. I have a client that owns both the MSB with director and the Wadax level 4. I have heard both of them many times in his systems. He preferes the Wadax as well by quite a bit.
I have not seen nor heard it I know nothing about its performance and I don't need to concede anything when I have no exposure. Thats insane.
Who cares what they were planning ? Thats YOU talking , everyone is always looking ahead in this business. So now Wadax sent signals to others LOL you have to be kidding me. Wadax is sending smoke signals today to all digital manufacturers ITS OK TO MAKE EXPENSIVE STUFF BOYS!!!!!!

 

[Argonaut]

Im gonna start buying Turntables, as soon as they top a million lol .
All these 100.000 + K Turntables cant be any good..

Ps I wish i had a 100.000 K lol , then i could finally enjoy music

 

[Lee]

I would argue that dcs AND msb are getting concerned that they have lost the "con" and they need to make something expensive to be considered relevant again. Maybe they can make something truly better and maybe they can't time will tell but for that to happen it needs to be done in a serious manner .
We shall see.

It was your own words above that I took as you implying that dCS and MSB were irrelevant.

 

[Elliot G.]

when you assume Lee LOL
What i said was not that and if you read it again you might be able to acertain my meaning.
Companies dont like to be considered less than the numero uno.
Wadax changed the game and they are all reacting. That is not anything but the facts. Wadax disrupted them.
Go back and read all the Wadax hate here when I forst got started it was like WDS LOL

 

[Lee]

when you assume Lee LOL
What i said was not that and if you read it again you might be able to acertain my meaning.
Companies dont like to be considered less than the numero uno.
Wadax changed the game and they are all reacting. That is not anything but the facts. Wadax disrupted them.
Go back and read all the Wadax hate here when I forst got started it was like WDS LOL

I read it several times. It clearly appears to me that you are calling dCS and MSB irrelevant. ???

 

[Elliot G.]

I read it several times. It clearly appears to me that you are calling dCS and MSB irrelevant. ???

well sorry that you dont get that I said that "they" need to make something expensive to be relevant again.

It seems obvious

 

[Hyperion]

There’s that assumption again that the industry is crashing. But I have heard from three prominent manufacturers that their production team is struggling to meet demand.

The high-end world is certainly changing in many aspects. Some manufacturers, distributors and dealers are experiencing a golden age (us included) where others are on life support or already gone. You need to take a broader and deeper look at the specifics to navigate things in a proper way, where there's very little consistency within the industry.

/ Marcus, www.perfect-sense.se

 

[ssfas]

The high-end world is certainly changing in many aspects. Some manufacturers, distributors and dealers are experiencing a golden age (us included) where others are on life support or already gone. You need to take a broader and deeper look at the specifics to navigate things in a proper way, where there's very little consistency within the industry.

/ Marcus, www.perfect-sense.se

At the top of the article RG rests a classic 1980s system:

That’s a full LP12 turntable, Ittok tonearm and ASAK cartridge, a Naim NAC32 pre-amp, SNAPS power supply, NAXO crossover and a pair of flagship NAP 250 power amps, all to play records through a pair of speakers the size of LS3/5as.

So here’s an instagram post from my local dealer (KJ WestOne) with a near identical modern equivalent for £9k/€10k.


KJ is a seriously high-end dealer, but keeps in touch with the more modest budget audiophile. Not easy these days with the cost of Central London retail space.

I suspect their success stems in part from being highly selective in what they stock. There is such a vast range of product that would make up systems in the €25-50k range, perhaps hundreds of brands, they have to make some hard choices. I like this place because at any price point there are a just enough choices without too much confusion.

 

[Hyperion]

At the top of the article RG rests a classic 1980s system:

That’s a full LP12 turntable, Ittok tonearm and ASAK cartridge, a Naim NAC32 pre-amp, SNAPS power supply, NAXO crossover and a pair of flagship NAP 250 power amps, all to play records through a pair of speakers the size of LS3/5as.

So here’s an instagram post from my local dealer (KJ WestOne) with a near identical modern equivalent for £9k/€10k.
View attachment 144940

KJ is a seriously high-end dealer, but keeps in touch with the more modest budget audiophile. Not easy these days with the cost of Central London retail space.

I suspect their success stems in part from being highly selective in what they stock. There is such a vast range of product that would make up systems in the €25-50k range, perhaps hundreds of brands, they have to make some hard choices. I like this place because at any price point there are a just enough choices without too much confusion.

You can build a lovely, timeless and very engaging system around a pair of modest Harbeth's for sure.

/ Marcus, www.perfect-sense.se

 

[morricab]

Forgot a lot
Jon Dahlquist
Sol Marantz
Javier Guadalajara
Nakamichi
The CD inventors
Bob Fulton - invented the wire and cable business
Ivor Tiefenbrun -Linn
Just a few missing from Gary’s List
And if course
Harry Pearson and J Gordon Holt

Altec and JBL???

 

[Elliot G.]

Altec and JBL???

cant remember everyone those were just a few off the top of my head in addition to Gary's list. I am sure there are more and some that I would never have thought about.

 

[sbnx]

I think this discussion on DAC's fits perfectly with Roy's article. A higher price DAC doesn't mean it is better. Sure, within the same brand the higher price DAC is probably better. e.g. I'm sure the new DCS DAC is better than the old one. I certainly hope so. But just because it is priced through the ceiling doesn't mean it is better than other DACs that might cost far less. That is for the purchaser to decide.

When I think of DAC innovation Wadax certainly comes to mind. The whole idea of feed forward error correction to correct for errors inherent in the DAC. And the idea of the knobs on the streamer to adjsut the digital wave form. Nobody else is doing these things that I am aware of.

The idea of the ring DAC was innovative back in the 90's.

Some innovative ideas can happen in the "software" part of the DAC. Things like reconstruction filters. These are typically hard to see for the consumer.

Most other stuff is more evolutionary. Better power supply, better clock, better vibration control, better board layout, etc. These things will improve the SQ and can take an engineer time to optimize. But they aren't generally innovative.

There is no doubt that DACs from Wadax, CH Precision, MSB and DCS all sound different. I look for a DAC that preserves the time domain information and has a low noise floor. IMO, any DAC company that is not listening to the competition or doesn't even listen to their own DAC will have a hard time competing in a tight market.

 

[Lee]

There is no doubt that DACs from Wadax, CH Precision, MSB and DCS all sound different. I look for a DAC that preserves the time domain information and has a low noise floor. IMO, any DAC company that is not listening to the competition or doesn't even listen to their own DAC will have a hard time competing in a tight market.

I got really excited about the sound from the Varese from the very first track which was astonishingly realistic to my ears. It reminded me of a really great pressing on my Continuum turntable. I later came to understand that the mono DAC configuration and a new approach to the timing control created this very low noise floor. So essentially we both have the same sonic goals.

However, to get to this low noise floor and get that special realism does require significant investment by a manufacturer and building more boxes so it will be more expensive. Can you get there with a $20,000-$50,000 DAC? I don't believe so. Can you get great sound with a $20,000 DAC? Absolutely.

I'm not being a price snob and indeed I personally cannot afford either the top Wadax or Varese DAC. But I do think generally speaking in DACs that you get what you pay for.

Am I hoping for more "trickle down technology" from the Varese project so my Rossini APEX sounds even more amazing? Heck yes!

 

[Lee]

By the way, dCS does listen to the competition and I had heard that they did their own independent measurements of the competition.

That not only makes sense from a market positioning standpoint, it also is essential for the business to understand how competitive they are on the "bread boards" before they spend a sizable amount to go into production.

 

[Tangram]

I am indeed guilty of being very enthusiastic about hifi. I get excited about anything cool in terms of sound or technology from any brand.

So we can expect a Positive Feedback review from you on a piece of gear made solo by an eccentric genius? If you are looking for ideas, drop me a line.

 

[Tangram]

The Quality Conundrum… - Gy8

The toxic relationship between price, discount and perceived value.

gy8.eu

Roy may be a good writer but he is in need of a good editor. As for the content, I find it pretty thin gruel.

The only way to properly audition a piece of equipment is to insert it into your own system. This is incontrovertible. But because of the logistics this can be an expensive proposition for the seller, especially with speakers and turntables. If your dealer is willing to bring over a pair of XVX’s for setup and audition - no strings attached - give that man a hug. Honestly, if there is a fee involved I’d say that’s money well spent, especially at the highest end.

I actually take note of the brands that seem to have big marketing budgets (you know, the ones with ads on the inside cover…) and then avoid them since it’s the same as walking into your lawyer’s mahogany-paneled boardroom. He didn’t pay for that. You did. Most of the well-known high end brands are in fact quite small companies. Just watch a factory tour video. So advertising as a percentage of operating costs is, I suspect, surprisingly high.

Overall I find Roy’s observations pretty obvious, and I’m merely a customer with limited insights into the economics of the hifi business. I imagine the same is doubly true for the manufacturers, distributors, and retailers who make up a decent portion of WBF’s forum community, and who have to nurse a P&L statement.

 

[Elliot G.]

Roy may be a good writer but he is in need of a good editor. As for the content, I find it pretty thin gruel.

The only way to properly audition a piece of equipment is to insert it into your own system. This is incontrovertible. But because of the logistics this can be an expensive proposition for the seller, especially with speakers and turntables. If your dealer is willing to bring over a pair of XVX’s for setup and audition - no strings attached - give that man a hug. Honestly, if there is a fee involved I’d say that’s money well spent, especially at the highest end.

I actually take note of the brands that seem to have big marketing budgets (you know, the ones with ads on the inside cover…) and then avoid them since it’s the same as walking into your lawyer’s mahogany-paneled boardroom. He didn’t pay for that. You did. Most of the well-known high end brands are in fact quite small companies. Just watch a factory tour video. So advertising as a percentage of operating costs is, I suspect, surprisingly high.

Overall I find Roy’s observations pretty obvious, and I’m merely a customer with limited insights into the economics of the hifi business. I imagine the same is doubly true for the manufacturers, distributors, and retailers who make up a decent portion of WBF’s forum community, and who have to nurse a P&L statement.

Asking for a friend ( lol ) This maybe a topic for a different thread but Ill ask it here anyway.
At the high end and particularly with large and costly items do you as a "potential purchaser" believe that to ask for such a home demonstration /loan that you should be willing to pay for such especially if you dont buy it?