New think piece from Roy Gregory- Thoughts?

[microstrip]

Lee,

Self-interest aside, I'm bored with the big brands that own so much space. What fun would this hobby be if only carriage trade brands like Magico, Wilson, and dCS existed? Who would challenge them to get better?

IMO we should be bored with why the alternative brands do not get proper recognition. I have respect for the brands you refer because of their transparency - I know technical details about the products, their development, who designs them and they supply samples to be measured in reviews. Although I am away from the places they are developed I have met with their designers and people from their factories in my country, and they also answered my tricky questions.

As remarkable in some ways as those firms are, I would characterize them as iterators, not innovators. The real innovators are to be found in the 2nd and 3rd-tier brands, making forums like WBF a must for the continued vitality of the high-end. I suspect the majority of members agree.

Can you tell me what are those real innovators in the 2nd and 3rd-tier brands? As far as I see since the appearance of digital he have just iterators in the high-end - surely some brilliant iterators, but nothing else.

 

[Lee]

Can you explain further Lee ....?

Nomograph is the driver positioning in Wilson speakers. The movements and overall geometry is more precise now.

 

[Lee]

Lee , how do you come up with that assumption .
This is all just speculation on your part.

With your kind of reasoning all is left in audio are a couple of big distributors / Brands

Not at all. I am simply pointing out there are downsides to smaller brands as well.

 

[bonzo75]

Can you explain further Lee ....?

He will have to take a polygraph to explain nomograph

 

[Lee]

Lee,

Self-interest aside, I'm bored with the big brands that own so much space. What fun would this hobby be if only carriage trade brands like Magico, Wilson, and dCS existed? Who would challenge them to get better?

As remarkable in some ways as those firms are, I would characterize them as iterators, not innovators. The real innovators are to be found in the 2nd and 3rd-tier brands, making forums like WBF a must for the continued vitality of the high-end. I suspect the majority of members agree.

I'm a hardcore watch enthusiast. My Dad gave me a Rolex Oyster on my 21st birthday, and my son still wears it. The crown and stem recently broke, and guess what Rolex told him - sorry, we no longer have parts for watches built before 1980!

I don’t agree. The big brands do just as much innovating as the smaller ones. Indeed, in this industry the brands became big by being innovative.

 

[bonzo75]

Nomograph is the driver positioning in Wilson speakers. The movements and overall geometry is more precise now.

Sorry. What you have said is positioning is more precise. That does not explain what is nomograph

 

[Lee]

Sorry. What you have said is positioning is more precise. That does not explain what is nomograph

I already defined it. It’s the driver positioning for the movable drivers.

 

[bonzo75]

I already defined it. It’s the driver positioning for the movable drivers.

So if someone builds a DIY speaker and adjusts the drivers is that nomograph? Or is this a particular Wilson procedure?

 

[Lee]

An misleading statement
Did they shortsightedly reduce the number of staff?
Did some staff leave for various reasons?
Can they not hire the appropriate number of staff needed?

etc,etc,etc

Two of the manufacturers are hiring but getting skilled labor is difficult. The bottom line is the demand is there. I personally know of two cable manufacturers who are running extra shifts to keep up with demand.

 

[Lee]

So if someone builds a DIY speaker and adjusts the drivers is that nomograph? Or is this a particular Wilson procedure?

It’s Wilson’s term I believe. They needed a way to describe how it works. What’s really cool is that the position may vary depending on the individual amps used. They often demonstrate it on the WAMMs at Sheryl Wilson’s house.

 

[microstrip]

Nomograph is the driver positioning in Wilson speakers. The movements and overall geometry is more precise now.

Lee,

As far A I remember they are are not including the nomograph in more recent models - we had them some old Wilson Audio speakers, the XLF just had tables. More precision now means smaller steps in the tables .

It seems to me they use the word now in a figurative style to address the tables - audiophiles are surely not wanting to draw lines in nomographs in the 2020's.

Edit - I have not seen the WAMM or XVX manuals.

 

[Lee]

Lee,

Self-interest aside, I'm bored with the big brands that own so much space. What fun would this hobby be if only carriage trade brands like Magico, Wilson, and dCS existed? Who would challenge them to get better?

As remarkable in some ways as those firms are, I would characterize them as iterators, not innovators. The real innovators are to be found in the 2nd and 3rd-tier brands, making forums like WBF a must for the continued vitality of the high-end. I suspect the majority of members agree.

I'm a hardcore watch enthusiast. My Dad gave me a Rolex Oyster on my 21st birthday, and my son still wears it. The crown and stem recently broke, and guess what Rolex told him - sorry, we no longer have parts for watches built before 1980!

Rolex has been a bit aggressive on older watches. But if you follow the YouTube watch repair channels I watch almost daily, you will see guys like Wristwatch Revival and they find parts and repair Rolex going back to the 30s.

 

[PYP]

As remarkable in some ways as those firms are, I would characterize them as iterators, not innovators. The real innovators are to be found in the 2nd and 3rd-tier brands, making forums like WBF a must for the continued vitality of the high-end. I suspect the majority of members agree.

I don't know which tier Mola Mola and Grimm Audio are in, but they are not well represented on WBF and they are innovators. I keep thinking it is the pricing - not the uber level (which some assume means they cannot be very good), but more expensive than many interested audiophiles can afford.

 

[SCAudiophile]

Sorry. What you have said is positioning is more precise. That does not explain what is nomograph

Nomograms (nomograph) are tools+techniques that have been used since the early 1900s and are leveraged in engineering, medical science, chemistry and many other disciplines. There is much info available online.

 

[Elliot G.]

It is an interesting thought piece but I have two constructive criticisms:

1. Roy seems to imply that very high prices are pure luxury pricing but does not talk to the emergence of the ultra luxury segment in hifi driven by the creation of more centi-millionaires and billionaires. Some audio companies are building cost no object flagships to specifically address that market and it’s helping everyone (better finances at mfr, better down market products).

2. Roy also suggests that certain establishment brands are not innovating. This seems very off to me given the incredible accomplishment of the dCS Varese. Wilson’s XVX also has many innovations (drivers, caps, nomograph precision) that push it ahead of the WAMM in many areas.

My god man how many times can you run this same commercial? What innovation ? I have nothing against any of these companies but this bs!
Wilson wilson wilson dcs dcs dcs.
Sorry not buying this nonsense every single time . Wadax , Riviera, Magico , MSB , Gobel , Von S, and other companies have done incredible work. DCS made a new product so that makes it revolutionary? Wilson speakers drivers move? Many would argue that’s their fatal flaw!
You pick some marketing term and swallow it hook line and sinker . Sorry Lee but if you want credibility as a reviewer you need to distance yourself like JV has to back in the days with Magico.
You want commercials
Here mine Wadax , Riviera , Magico Wadax , Westminster Labs and others have more technology, done more to push the sound foward and none of which you have had in your home and listening room but alas your opinion is made through osmosis.
This isn’t personal but I’m calling you out on this same old story.
Last thing a “ technological advance does not equal a sonic advance. It may or may not and might do nothing.
Marketing words are only for marketing

 

[bonzo75]

Nomograms (nomograph) are tools+techniques that have been used since the early 1900s and are leveraged in engineering, medical science, chemistry and many other disciplines. There is much info available online.

If it’s used since 1900s why is Lee suggesting this as a “Wilson innovation”

 

[SCAudiophile]

If it’s used since 1900s why is Lee suggesting this as a

If it’s used since 1900s why is Lee suggesting this as a “Wilson innovation”

Possibly the fact that they leverage it for speaker setup.

 

[Lee]

My god man how many times can you run this same commercial? What innovation ? I have nothing against any of these companies but this bs!
Wilson wilson wilson dcs dcs dcs.
Sorry not buying this nonsense every single time . Wadax , Riviera, Magico , MSB , Gobel , Von S, and other companies have done incredible work. DCS made a new product so that makes it revolutionary? Wilson speakers drivers move? Many would argue that’s their fatal flaw!
You pick some marketing term and swallow it hook line and sinker . Sorry Lee but if you want credibility as a reviewer you need to distance yourself like JV has to back in the days with Magico.
You want commercials
Here mine Wadax , Riviera , Magico Wadax , Westminster Labs and others have more technology, done more to push the sound foward and none of which you have had in your home and listening room but alas your opinion is made through osmosis.
This isn’t personal but I’m calling you out on this same old story.
Last thing a “ technological advance does not equal a sonic advance. It may or may not and might do nothing.
Marketing words are only for marketing

Nothing personal Elliot but you are just talking your book. I like Wadax and Goebel too but to be blind to the innovation of the dCS Varese is pretty f'd up. At least give dCS credit for pushing the envelope with Tomix, new Ring DAC innovations, and getting to a really low noise floor.

And quit being a hypocrite by slamming the audiophile press here daily and then when TAS puts the Wadax Studio on their cover you quickly share it across a dozen Facebook pages.

 

[Lee]

I don't know which tier Mola Mola and Grimm Audio are in, but they are not well represented on WBF and they are innovators. I keep thinking it is the pricing - not the uber level (which some assume means they cannot be very good), but more expensive than many interested audiophiles can afford.

I like Mola Mola a lot and have great admiration for Bruno. As for Grimm, I would like to like them given the story but I have not yet heard good sound from their products. Maybe it was a setup issue at Axpona.

 

[microstrip]

Nomograms (nomograph) are tools+techniques that have been used since the early 1900s and are leveraged in engineering, medical science, chemistry and many other disciplines. There is much info available online.

Yes, all this debate on nomographs is absolutely ridiculous. It is like discussing the use of calculators or spreadsheets ...

The only relevant point is that the speaker unit is positioned in the whole structure as a function of two variables - speaker distance and speaker height. It can be also corrected for amplifier delay time.