Air Force 1 Premium - New Flagship

[analog brother]

agreed.
it cannot possibly be measured.
but it's somebody's estimate of subjective improvement.
therefore, doubly subjective!?
i dislike it when people use this method to relay their opinion. highly unreliable.
they should just say: "imo, this new motor improves the sound by quite a margin", or something like that....

 

[number95]

agreed.
it cannot possibly be measured.
but it's somebody's estimate of subjective improvement.
therefore, doubly subjective!?
i dislike it when people use this method to relay their opinion. highly unreliable.
they should just say: "imo, this new motor improves the sound by quite a margin", or something like that....

+1

I think it is a marketing effort. When there are numbers on hand, it may be easier to justify the claims.

 

[bonzo75]

+1

I think it is a marketing effort. When there are numbers on hand, it may be easier to justify the claims.

Frankly all well set up TTs sound great to me. Goes for your Acoustic Solid Royal as well, I heard the One to One on Apogees once and it was great, with Ortofon A90 and Kuzma 4p arm, some cheap phono.

 

[bonzo75]

I think on reflection I have decided I am a Techdas sorts when compared with Kronos. Techdas has a sound - it sounds bassy, slammy, weighty, and the sound I got at the show was the same as at Steve's from techdas, and which I have heard earlier at shows and in dmnc02's room. Also this was from AF2. I like that sound. The Kronos is I will disappear type TT, at least at the show, and that is not for me. I think rest of the timbre etc I can tune by cartridge. And that is similar to what it sounds at JVS (Jim's)

It was just that DDk's visit had made me think I am not Techdas type because over there I was more Thorens Ref, American Sounds, and EMT type.

Of course long term musicality might be with the Kronos, who knows?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I think on reflection I have decided I am a Techdas sorts when compared with Kronos. Techdas has a sound - it sounds bassy, slammy, weighty, and the sound I got at the show was the same as at Steve's from techdas, and which I have heard earlier at shows and in dmnc02's room. Also this was from AF2. I like that sound. The Kronos is I will disappear type TT, at least at the show, and that is not for me. I think rest of the timbre etc I can tune by cartridge. And that is similar to what it sounds at JVS (Jim's)

It was just that DDk's visit had made me think I am not Techdas type because there I was Thorens Ref, American Sounds, and EMT type over there.

Of course long term musicality might be with the Kronos, who knows?

I have a friend with a Forsell Air Reference One turntable. this guy is 'uber' techie and has it really sounding great. he uses the same cartridge and phono preamp as I do. recently he discovered that if he tilted the platter 'just a little' he neutralized the air bearing perfectly with the belt......the soundstage expanded and the turntable just disappeared. magical.

I visited him this past weekend and was very impressed.

he played a familiar piano solo for me that I use to use as a test track for cartridge and tt set-up. I really know that music. something was missing.

when I got home I heard what was missing.

the attack and sustain and explosiveness of the music was very different on my NVS-Durand-Herzan. the flow and propulsion of the music was different. the tonal complexity and sparkle was different.

did the Forsell disappear better? maybe in some ways. was that 'disappearing' musically valuable? that is debatable. real music is not really like that.

but I can see that the disappearing act could be addictive.

I'm not sure how relative this experience might be to the AF1-Kronos talk....but there might be some connection.

 

[Steve williams]

Mike

IIRC Gary Koh posted somewhere here in a Tech Das thread that very thing. Perhaps if Gary reads this he night comment. I think he was at Munich so might be on his way home

 

[microstrip]

I have a friend with a Forsell Air Reference One turntable. this guy is 'uber' techie and has it really sounding great. he uses the same cartridge and phono preamp as I do. recently he discovered that if he tilted the platter 'just a little' he neutralized the air bearing perfectly with the belt......the soundstage expanded and the turntable just disappeared. magical.

I visited him this past weekend and was very impressed.

he played a familiar piano solo for me that I use to use as a test track for cartridge and tt set-up. I really know that music. something was missing.

when I got home I heard what was missing.

the attack and sustain and explosiveness of the music was very different on my NVS-Durand-Herzan. the flow and propulsion of the music was different. the tonal complexity and sparkle was different.

did the Forsell disappear better? maybe in some ways. was that 'disappearing' musically valuable? that is debatable. real music is not really like that.

but I can see that the disappearing act could be addictive.

I'm not sure how relative this experience might be to the AF1-Kronos talk....but there might be some connection.

Yes, the way the Forsell disappears is addictive. As I have the Air Force one with separate air bearing flywheel I can play with string tension, and at the proper one we have what I have called the feeling of the "absence of vinyl" - minimal tracking artifacts and a very large soundstage . The Achile's heel of the Forsell is the low bass weight, although the bass is articulate.

 

[The Phantom]

OK, troops - everyone At Ease..! Before the rumor-mill starts heating up excessively, let me just bring you up to date. First, to answer Peter A's observation: Graham Engineering is still the exclusive U.S./Canadian/S.American representative for all TechDAS products, and the marketing of tonearms as a package is, if you think about it, would always be left to the importer in the different countries involved. In the U.S., we naturally supply our Elite arms as a package, although other tonearms can be used, of course, but the turntables are sold to distributors with no arm (as suggested by BruceD) attached.

As for the question on the AF-Zero, yes - it is a project that's still under development, and Graham and TechDAS are firmly in joint partnership between our products. More news on that when it's really ready and appropriate.

The pricing, too, is still to be finalized for the Premium, so whoever started the $140K number should tread carefully there.

Lastly, troops, as any of us veterans know, rumors abound in the Military and, especially, in this business; often, it only causes confusion and disappointment. So, for now, relax, stand At Ease, and enjoy the music. We will be in Base Headquarters to answer any questions that CAN be answered..!

DIS--MISSED..!! - Bob Graham (ex Air Force and can't seem to forget it.!)

 

[The Phantom]

The Elite is no slouch by any means. Tracks like a mutha, at least with all my carts, and to me lacks nothing. The AF1 on the other hand has got a lot of stuff over it's little brother. I know very little about the SAT arm. I still prefer my Elite to my 4-Point except with a Koetsu. There are so many variables to make a conclusive statement but pushed to guess, keep the Elite and get an AF1 and be done. So says the guy about to take a serious look at a Premium! LOL!

Thank you, Jack, for the positive and, I believe, well-considered comment and support..! As you know, we all work hard in this busienss, and while there are other worthy contenders out there, to be sure, we still try to make the best there is. Which is good for everyone. At a recent store demo, the AF-3/Elite handily acquitted itself, as others observed, in a shoot-out with, let's just say, a more expensive option.... At another demo, the situation might reverse. Relax, enjoy the music and don't fret over minutae that might change tomorrow with the weather...

 

[MadFloyd]

So what does it mean that a tt 'disappears'? Are you referring to imparting no sound/character of its own, lack of surface noise, or something else?

 

[thedudeabides]

I was wondering the same thing.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

So what does it mean that a tt 'disappears'? Are you referring to imparting no sound/character of its own, lack of surface noise, or something else?

when Bonzo above mentioned his preference for the AF1 over the Kronos and characterized the Kronos as an 'I will disappear' type tt it made me think of my friend's Forsell.

and I can only speak for what I personally think that means.

I think it means that the ratio of musical message to space and soundstage size changes and noise drops too. the music somewhat floats....is not as grounded, authoritative or propulsive. which is a plus and minus to some degree. I recall from my Rockport Sirius III experience that there was an element of that sort of sound there too, but the dynamics and musical weight and energy was greater by far with the Rockport than the Forsell in magnitude. I cannot say how the Kronos compares with the Rockport as my encounters with it have been such up to this time that I dismiss them as not helpful.

possibly it's a sonic signature of a linear tracking arm. could be the air bearing (both arm and platter). or a combination of both. somehow maybe the reverse rotation platter of the Kronos brings some of that to the table.

is it a pleasing artifact?

or is it more real?

or are we even accurate in assigning this characteristic to the Kronos? I don't want to be the one labeling any product I don't know well.

 

[microstrip]

So what does it mean that a tt 'disappears'? Are you referring to imparting no sound/character of its own, lack of surface noise, or something else?

I have referred before that the noise seems much less intrusive and disconnected from the music. Usually, subjectively the noise follows the soundstage, but with the Forsell the music defines a very large soundstage, free from artifacts. I got my Forsell used, but had listened to it several times before. The first time I listened to it the owner played the Louis Fremaux - Massenet, Le Cid Ballet followed by a Harry Belafonte Returns to Carnergie Hall. The lines of the orchestra, the fluidity in the soundstage and the emotion and the wavering energy of the public cause me a considerable impression, specially because it seemed there was no LP flowing and turning around in the way I was used to. In some aspects it is more like a tape than an LP.

However the Forsell has several serious technical problems - sometimes the speed will drift slowly and it will not arrive to to end of the LP with the same speed that it started, if the air flow is not properly adjusted you will have flutter problems , the dental floss belt is very instable. And most of these problems will just happen when you have audiophile guests ...

 

[Steve williams]

And most of these problems will just happen when you have audiophile guests

That is so true. I can't tell you how many times I can relate to that.

 

[Audiocrack]

Use a stable motor(drive) with the Forsell and it functions flawlessly. I use it with a Walker motordrive. Still consider the Forsell as a beautiful sounding and emotionally moving table. Still love it!

 

[microstrip]

Use a stable motor(drive) with the Forsell and it functions flawlessly. I use it with a Walker motordrive. Still consider the Forsell as a beautiful sounding and emotionally moving table. Still love it!

This solution is only possible with the Reference, that uses a synchronous motor. Unfortunately the Air Force one with the air bearing flywheel, that sounds considerable better, uses a DC motor with a flawed DC servo scheme . I am still thinking of driving the high mass air bearing flywheel with a Revox B77 capstan motor and controler, like the original Apolyt. When I become too impatient I use it with an external Michell Orbe without the flywheel, driving the platter via a Clearaudio belt.

I know of one Forsell owner using it with success with the VPI double motor flywheel - it is my source of inspiration.

And I surely agree it is a great turntable!

 

[Audiocrack]

I am using the Forsell Air Force 1 with the Walker motordrive without problems. The Forsell flywheel drove me crazy. Sure, the AF 1 (with flywheel) is much better than the Forsell Reference but what use is a turntable that cannot be stabilized (in my experience it was always the flywheel that caused the problems)?

 

[JackD201]

This solution is only possible with the Reference, that uses a synchronous motor. Unfortunately the Air Force one with the air bearing flywheel, that sounds considerable better, uses a DC motor with a flawed DC servo scheme . I am still thinking of driving the high mass air bearing flywheel with a Revox B77 capstan motor and controler, like the original Apolyt. When I become too impatient I use it with an external Michell Orbe without the flywheel, driving the platter via a Clearaudio belt.

I know of one Forsell owner using it with success with the VPI double motor flywheel - it is my source of inspiration.

And I surely agree it is a great turntable!

Hi Micro, which AF1? The TD AF1 uses an AC motor powered by two 150w amplifiers and controlled by a non-servo scheme that like CA uses an optical sensor and crystal oscillators.

 

[MatthewC]

Looks like the AF1 Premium is officially announced in Japan.... with list price of JPY 10 million versus 7.2 million for the standard issue.....

Apparently on sale from November.....

http://www.stereosound.co.jp/news/article/2016/09/04/49001.html

 

[Steve williams]

That's roughly a difference of $28,000 USD in Japan


$98,556 vs $70,960 in Japan before to reaches the USA