Dark, analytical, bright, warm....what terms, what meanings?

[DaveyF]

We seem to have developed a large number of terms in our quest to describe what we hear in our gear.
Some of these terms are fairly self explanatory... Some not so much

For example, in the thread on the Lamm Preamp, the term 'dark' was raised.... A term that seems to have become much more popular recently ...I was not sure how 'dark' applied to what we hear....light, dark, grey, black, colored etc.,??
Perhaps we should discuss the meaning of these terms and more specifically, what they mean to different members.


So....dark, warm, bright, analytical, neutral, cool.....other terms, your thoughts..

 

[fas42]

As a starting point, the infamous Holt glossary in Stereophile ...

dark A warm, mellow, excessively rich quality in reproduced sound. The audible effect of a frequency response which is clockwise-tilted across the entire range, so that output diminishes with increasing frequency. Compare "light."

 

[DaveyF]

As a starting point, the infamous Holt glossary in Stereophile ...

dark A warm, mellow, excessively rich quality in reproduced sound. The audible effect of a frequency response which is clockwise-tilted across the entire range, so that output diminishes with increasing frequency. Compare "light."

Frank, that description of 'dark' seems to be a little weird, IMHO. How does output diminish with increasing frequency and how is that tied to the 'so called' effect of being 'dark'??

 

[fas42]

Davey, that description is a direct lift from J. Gordon Holt's terminology, the latest version is here, http://www.stereophile.com/reference/50/. IOW, there appears to be bass boost and treble cut to the FR, subjectively.

One can argue that the meaning is being used differently in that thread, it's up to others to offer their thoughts ...

 

[MadFloyd]

IOW, there appears to be bass boost and treble cut to the FR, subjectively.

I don't know if I'd describe it as 'bass boost' but a combination of warmth (generous lower midrange) along with treble cut.

 

[PeterA]

It seems as though Holt is defining "dark" in terms of tonal balance. In this sense, I have heard systems or components described as being dark, neutral, or bright, depending on the relative subjective emphasis on either the lower or upper frequencies.

I have also heard people use the term "dark" to describe the subjective amount of information or resolution produced by a system or perceived by a listener. The image that comes to my mind is of an actor on a stage highlighted by a spotlight. If the light is too dim, one can't see everything on that stage. Visual information is lost in the dark scene. Edges are softened, details are hidden.

I think the former definition is more common or conventional, but the latter definition is certainly useful. I have also heard/read "dark" and "warm" used interchangeably, as well as "bright" and "cool".

The interesting thing is that I have heard two specific systems that have been described in quite different terms by the same listeners. One was either dark or neutral in terms of tonal balance and the other was either neutral or bright. These same systems were also described as either being very resolving and transparent, or not.

We can come to some general agreement about the definitions of terms, but we still perceive and describe things very differently. Perhaps that is why so much can be written and discussed in these forums.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

in my experience the most clear view of 'dark' and 'light' was when I switched from Transparent Opus MM2 speaker cables to Evolution Acoustics TRSC (triple run speaker cables).

I loved the Opus MM2. however; it was educational how much more open and airy the EA was. the Opus MM2 in direct comparison lacked top end air and the tonal pallet was shaded. and this was simply what I perceived in my system. i'm not assigning 'dark' to the Opus MM2 in all contexts.

I interpret 'dark' as 'lack of light' or 'reduced light'......not added tonal weight. I lost no mid range weight or tonal harmonics with the EA.

are some cables 'tone controls'? that's a different question.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

As a starting point, the infamous Holt glossary in Stereophile ...

dark A warm, mellow, excessively rich quality in reproduced sound. The audible effect of a frequency response which is clockwise-tilted across the entire range, so that output diminishes with increasing frequency. Compare "light."

I think this definition is spot on.

 

[DaveyF]

I think this definition is spot on.

So, are we also saying that 'dark' is another form of colored?

 

[Rodney Gold]

So, are we also saying that 'dark' is another form of colored?

Must be , either colouration in that its additive , or colouration in that something is lacking.
Everything is coloured anyway..

 

[ddk]

It seems as though Holt is defining "dark" in terms of tonal balance. In this sense, I have heard systems or components described as being dark, neutral, or bright, depending on the relative subjective emphasis on either the lower or upper frequencies.

I have also heard people use the term "dark" to describe the subjective amount of information or resolution produced by a system or perceived by a listener. The image that comes to my mind is of an actor on a stage highlighted by a spotlight. If the light is too dim, one can't see everything on that stage. Visual information is lost in the dark scene. Edges are softened, details are hidden.

I think the former definition is more common or conventional, but the latter definition is certainly useful. I have also heard/read "dark" and "warm" used interchangeably, as well as "bright" and "cool".

The interesting thing is that I have heard two specific systems that have been described in quite different terms by the same listeners. One was either dark or neutral in terms of tonal balance and the other was either neutral or bright. These same systems were also described as either being very resolving and transparent, or not.

We can come to some general agreement about the definitions of terms, but we still perceive and describe things very differently. Perhaps that is why so much can be written and discussed in these forums.

You're probably right Peter I used to think of 60's tube McIntosh electronics as dark but I've since changed my mind, DARK is what comes to mind when I hear Digital amps, whatever class they may be called these days, and a lot of digital recordings.

david

 

[FrantzM]

You're probably right Peter I used to think of 60's tube McIntosh electronics as dark but I've since changed my mind, DARK is what comes to mind when I hear Digital amps, whatever class they may be called these days, and a lot of digital recordings.

david

This is such a subjective point of view. Many call the sound of so-called digital amplifiers "whitish" ...
I fail to see how something that sound "whitish" would sound dark.

It is all in the mind after all ...

 

[ddk]

This is such a subjective point of view. Many call the sound of so-called digital amplifiers "whitish" ...
I fail to see how something that sound "whitish" would sound dark.

It is all in the mind after all ...

Its all subjective Frantz and English language isn't native to many of us either, why a thread like this can be helpful. Now we know that no one's on the same page !

david

 

[morricab]

This is such a subjective point of view. Many call the sound of so-called digital amplifiers "whitish" ...
I fail to see how something that sound "whitish" would sound dark.

It is all in the mind after all ...

I would also generally classify them as somewhat "whitish" sounding but there is often a lack of that sensation of "air" around instruments and fine harmonic structure that could lead one to sense it as "shut-in" or maybe "dark" in extreme cases. I have owned three different ones and they were generally sounding more whitish to me simply because the highs were not well differentiated tonally and all kind of sounded soft but uniform in tone...like white noise. It was not aggressive or "tizzy" like some really poor SS from 40 years ago but it lacks tonal differntiation (for example the brassy sound of cymbals and being able to tell their size by how the tone they make when they shimmer) is washed out. Bass from Class D amps also is rather "one note" and lacks tonal differentiation...probably becaus this is defined not by bass but by upper harmonics that go right up through the mids and highs, where the differentiation falls apart.

 

[DaveyF]

I would also generally classify them as somewhat "whitish" sounding but there is often a lack of that sensation of "air" around instruments and fine harmonic structure that could lead one to sense it as "shut-in" or maybe "dark" in extreme cases. I have owned three different ones and they were generally sounding more whitish to me simply because the highs were not well differentiated tonally and all kind of sounded soft but uniform in tone...like white noise. It was not aggressive or "tizzy" like some really poor SS from 40 years ago but it lacks tonal differntiation (for example the brassy sound of cymbals and being able to tell their size by how the tone they make when they shimmer) is washed out. Bass from Class D amps also is rather "one note" and lacks tonal differentiation...probably becaus this is defined not by bass but by upper harmonics that go right up through the mids and highs, where the differentiation falls apart.

I think that your description is the closest to what I usually hear with most Class D amps. Comparing say a tube amp that runs class AB or even SET, to one of the new Class D amps is going to really highlight the difference in approach. What I do find most interesting is the way that we ( a'philes) try and utilize the English language to describe a particular sound..or lack thereof. IMHO, HP was one of the best at doing this...and as we can see by this thread, these descriptors tend to mean different things to different people. Nonetheless, I do think that every one has a good idea as to what they are trying to describe, which is why I think it will be continue to be helpful if we can discuss this further.

 

[Bruce B]

This is the language that I had to translate when I got into mastering decades ago. I cater mostly to audiophile labels, and when they told me something was too dark or too bright, I had to translate that into my professional world and "fix" what they don't like about it. It's been a long journey, but also being an audiophile helped immensely.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Ahh too bright to dark , see if the audiophile world doesnt have a FR standard to begin with then pleasing one guys system is doing the oppposite to the other guys system , nobody will ever be satisfied

 

[Audiophile Bill]

So, are we also saying that 'dark' is another form of colored?

I guess you could argue that being that essentially you are talking about a system that is disproportionately downward sloped (left to right on a plot) in its frequency response. Disproportionate being the important word and more so than that in the studio where the recording was captured.

 

[the sound of Tao]

I wonder if we could view these things the way they are understood in the world of art, music and design. Light and dark are both potentially objective and the subjective, where the literal qualities of something are experienced in a universal or shared way, where the context of a thing becomes the spirit of a thing.

I feel some potential associations can be (amongst others)...
Warm, lit up, upper, brilliance, odd order harmonic, attack, major chord, joy, self, active, yang
Dark, closed in, lower, sombre, even order harmonic, decay, minor chord, melancholy, reflection, passive, yin

 

[FrantzM]

I wonder if we could view these things the way they are understood in the world of art, music and design. Light and dark are both potentially objective and the subjective, where the literal qualities of something are experienced in a universal or shared way, where the context of a thing becomes the spirit of a thing.

I feel some potential associations can be (amongst others)...
Warm, lit up, upper, brilliance, odd order harmonic, attack, major chord, joy, self, active, yang
Dark, closed in, lower, sombre, even order harmonic, decay, minor chord, melancholy, reflection, passive, yin

I am lost here Tao ...