Doctor's Orders-Part Two-The New Listening Room Of Steve Williams

JackD201

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Robert posts so sparingly I forgot he was on here. Sorry Robert ;)

Robert and I were some of the first testers and eventually owners of MB Signatures and Ultras. I believe Robert was a Beta tester as well. We had no contact during the process. If I don't say much it's simply because it's difficult to explain. I know the technical details but only those provided. Since I also distribute them locally, It's just so much easier to "Show" instead of "Tell". Cable debates are hard enough, almost impossible when those having the debate are not specialists in the field. I just skip that by choice. No need for anecdotes or anything. Either one likes it and finds the value commensurate to the investment or one doesn't. The tough part is when the desire is there but the wallet is unwilling as is my case with a full Ultra loom albeit I do have Ultra XLRs for my all SS CH Precision set that rotates with the Lamms.
 

fas42

Addicted To Best
Jan 8, 2011
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Even after having Ultra cabling and internal wiring in my system for a year (longer for the 100's), I'm still amazed how instruments and voices are presented in a palpably intact way and that even in complex passages, the individuality of each instrument is retained. You can hear in a Horowitz recording that the piano is his piano-- he required that it was shipped to each performance venue, even to Moscow. When I play recordings of solo piano, the individuality of each piano is more clearly conveyed that I've heard elsewhere. A visual analogy I like to use is that with an Ultra system there is a filigree of detail retained in both quiet and loud passages that is otherwise lost. It's that high resolution quality that, in my experience, sets Ultra technology apart. Once you hear that, it's hard to go back to a system without it.

Best,
Robert
+1 ... yes, once you've heard how good the sound can get it's pretty well impossible to live with anything less. There are alternatives to buying high quality cables, etc, but at the moment this will most likely require a lot of fiddling, by someone willing to get their hands dirty under the bonnet - things should improve down the track, it's a waiting game with the makers of quality gear ...
 

ack

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I wanted to clarify a couple of points regarding the MB Ultra cabling. As for Ultra's composition, it's not simply "six nines" copper, but is an alloy of various metals as well as rare earth elements. The insulation is manufactured by MB in a vacuum to remove oxygen that otherwise interacts with the signal. The configuration and conformation of the cabling is designed to both shield the cabling from external sources and to avoid self interaction of the signal.

Thanks. I assume there is real data somewhere about these alloys and rare earth elements? Steve does not appear to have any; do you? Without any details, this runs the risk of looking like nothing more than Deus ex Machina. But for now, I'll take the claims at face value, but remain highly skeptical that these are the only cables with such great attributes and sound, as you guys described it. To give an analogy, Dunlop owns 100% of the airline industry's tire business, and if one were to watch their videos, one would be amazed at the QC and engineering prowess - but, that still doesn't make them the best for automobile applications.
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Ack

as best I know the exact contents of these alloys and rare earth elements will not be divulged by the company so this is all moot IMHO

What matters to me is the sound and this is what you should be dwelling on as it was beyond anything I ever heard except at Jack's and even more so at Jim's. I suggest remaining skeptical is a good thing. I was but hearing what I heard in my system convinced me these cables are truly exceptional. Completely neutral and uncolored with so much more detail everywhere as well as the best top and bottom end I have ever heard in my system
 

KeithR

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May 7, 2010
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Ack

as best I know the exact contents of these alloys and rare earth elements will not be divulged by the company so this is all moot IMHO

What matters to me is the sound and this is what you should be dwelling on as it was beyond anything I ever heard except at Jack's and even more so at Jim's. I suggest remaining skeptical is a good thing. I was but hearing what I heard in my system convinced me these cables are truly exceptional. Completely neutral and uncolored with so much more detail everywhere as well as the best top and bottom end I have ever heard in my system

what cables have these been compared favorably with by VSA owners?

I use WyWires now and Alex uses copper, litz, etc. and is pretty inexpensive and based in SoCal. Have to admit, I've never liked Nordost (as we discussed years ago up in Danville :)
 

jeff1225

Well-Known Member
Jan 29, 2012
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Keith,
You'll have to bring over those wires. I did extensive blind listening between silver and copper and have decided that I like copper plain and simple.
 

kernelbob

Well-Known Member
Oct 23, 2011
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Thanks. I assume there is real data somewhere about these alloys and rare earth elements? Steve does not appear to have any; do you? Without any details, this runs the risk of looking like nothing more than Deus ex Machina. But for now, I'll take the claims at face value, but remain highly skeptical that these are the only cables with such great attributes and sound, as you guys described it. To give an analogy, Dunlop owns 100% of the airline industry's tire business, and if one were to watch their videos, one would be amazed at the QC and engineering prowess - but, that still doesn't make them the best for automobile applications.

I've never made such a claim and have not seen others making that claim-- that the MB cables are "the only cables with such great attributes and sound". One of the benefits of sites such as WBF is the opportunity to read many folks' experiences with a wide variety of products and perspectives. I purchased the MB Signature and later the MB Ultra cables based on how they performed in my system, not because of their engineering pedigree. I described my listening impressions. You'd see many more posts from me if I were beating the bushes to generate sales.

Best,
Robert
 

Leif S

Industry Expert
Feb 13, 2015
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www.vonschweikert.com
Over the pst few days I have spent endless hours in my sound room as I have discovered what JackD201 calls his and brother Jim's second best kept secret (the first being the use of Critical Mass Systems racks). When I recently visited Jack and Jim in Manila I was gobsmacked by their systems. I have never heard anything as real and natural as Jim and Jack's systems. Both use Von Schweikert speakers with Jack having the VR11 Mk ll and Jim the one off VR 111 SX. Both systems are world class with Jim's IMO being the greatest system I have ever heard in my life.

Well what could be contributing to these systems to make such amazing sound. This is when Jack told me about their second best kept secret and that was the use of full looms each of Master Built Cable. There have been a few threads here over the past few years on Master Built cables but nothing that proclaims this cable superior to anything else....until I did my due diligence and researched the cable.

The cable is however well known to many users of Von Schweikert speakers and are sold to customers all of whom have gone gaga over this cable.

Talking to Albert, Damon and Leif from VSAudio they are bringing to market their Ultra Series speakers which have much technology based on Jim's one off VR 111 SX. All of the new and soon to be released Ultra 9, Ultra 11 and the VR 101 are internally wired with Master Built Ultra cables. In fact I am told that there are over 200' of MB Ultra cable wired inside Jim's speakers

I have thought long and hard about both of these systems to the point that I reached out to Leif S (member here) from VSAudio and enquired about auditioning these with my Wilson speakers. To the best of my knowledge this cable seems to be used most by VS speaker owners. Leif was more than generous as he too expressed a similar interest as he commented that he has great respect for Dave Wilson and his knowledge in speaker design but at shows he has always been disappointed because the speakers are shown with networked MIT or Transparent cables which for Leif has resulted in less than optimum sound

Hi Steve,

I really wanted to thank you for taking the time to share your wonderful system with me the other day. I see you had mentioned some of my comments about my experience with the Wilson Audio speakers at the audio shows and also the grand opening of a new store who's premier speakers were the Wilson. I have always thought the Wilson speakers were good, but I have always had a suspicion that they were being held back. My suspicion was based on our experiments with many other cable manufacturers products on our speakers. What we experienced with many of these other cables was a big loss of musical information. Sure we always had a change to the sound, but was that change an improvement? Some of these cables acted like huge filters. Simply put, those cables robbed the life out of our speakers. It's not that they sounded bad, it is just not the sound I know our speakers are capable of or meets my listening preferences. We never new what we were missing until the MasterBuilt cables arrived. Now I'm not saying that you can't get good sound with other cables. I've seen systems with a mix match of several different brands of cables. Copper here, Silver there; like a +10, -7 attempt to get to neutral. It was like assembling a crossover outside the speaker.

From the first moment I sat in your chair in front of your Wilson's and you played the first song on vinyl I was amazed. This was so far beyond anything I have ever experienced in a Wilson, but most importantly, this is "World Class" sound. I have always considered Dave to be one of the worlds best designers and after hearing your system Steve, only gave me more appreciation to what he has contributed to this industry.

Since the very first cable arrived from Masterbuilt and we put it in our system, we couldn't believe what we were hearing. We have been using other manufacturers cables since VSA was first established in 1976. So believe me, we've sampled them all. It was only a few years ago that we understood what systems were truly capable of.

I have to say I was a little nervous to what we were going to hear with the MasterBuilt cables on your system. I now know without a doubt that the synergy between the MasterBuilt cables and the Wilson speakers is incredible.

Again Steve, thank you so much for opening up your home and sharing your wonderful system with me.

P.S.

I can totally understand now why you don't want to part with those amps. They are truly special:)
 
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microstrip

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May 30, 2010
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(...) From the first moment I sat in your chair in front of your Wilson's and you played the first song on vinyl I was amazed. (...)

Leif,

I have read in your site that your cables were particularly adequate to remove digital noise. Did you listen to Steve's system playing digital?
 

Leif S

Industry Expert
Feb 13, 2015
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Leif,

I have read in your site that your cables were particularly adequate to remove digital noise. Did you listen to Steve's system playing digital?

Hello microstrip,

I did listen to digital and I did not hear any digital noise at all. And I'm basing that statement in comparrison to what we hear on our system. I do know Steve has been listening to a lot of digital over the last couple of days since it is much faster to cycle through so many different recordings. Steve is using the Signature interconnects at the moment for his digital. He would really be the one to ask:)
 

Leif S

Industry Expert
Feb 13, 2015
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Maybe I should expand on this a bit. There has been a few DACs we have used that no matter what cables we used that the digital glare was still audible. But as far as the digital at Steve's, I thought it was quite good. Fantastic would be a better word lol.
 

Damon Von Schweikert

WBF Technical Expert
Sep 15, 2016
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Hi All,

First off, I really appreciate everyone’s interest in our now officially launched MasterBuilt Audio cables. It’s been a long road getting here to be the world-wide distributor of these excellent cables which first started in 2008 when we were approached by VSA customers who wanted us to audition a cable they were working on.

As I’m sure you can all understand, we approach wire the same way we do any other speaker component; with a mixture of skepticism and reserved excitement. You never know where the next great component will come from but it usually requires wading through a sea of at best, mediocre “me-too” components. But for us, it always comes down to the testing and listening. Only then can we know the true value of a component and whether it belongs in one of our VSA designs.

And that’s how we came to understand what a revolutionary product this was and how we wanted/needed to be a part of its development as well as incorporate it into our go-forward products.

This initially began by using the wire in our speakers. As the MasterBuilt Audio engineers developed their system cables which has come to be known as the Reference Line, we waited eagerly for each cable to arrive at our sound room. As we incorporated first Power Cords, then later Interconnects and finally Speaker Cables, our factory reference system transformed. From my personal experience, adding each cable was like removing a dirty pane of glass that was restricting me from seeing the image right in front of me without even knowing the barrier was there.

Now I know to some, MasterBuilt must seem like a recently developed product and oh-by-the-way, they have four complete lines. How did this company suddenly spring up out of nowhere and what credibility could they have? From our perspective, this has been an eight year effort of development both inside and outside the company with a lot of help from “beta testers” who’s opinions we very much value. In true VSA fashion, we focus more on engineering and development and less on marketing which explains (at least for myself) how we came up with four complete lines before officially launching it. Development is our comfort zone but Leif and I are working very hard to grow our “marketing wings” as it were.

That said, we’ve invested tens of thousands of dollars to demonstrate these cables with our speakers at shows since 2008. Actually, it’s more like 6 figures if I were to add it up. Now I’m not claiming this was simply out of the goodness of our hearts, far from it. Our motivations are entirely self-serving as we go to shows to win awards and these cables have been a huge element of our arsenal. But if you go back and check, these cables have been present in every show award we’ve received since 2008. That goes double when you consider all of Endeavor Audio’s awards since they used MasterBuilt Audio cables as well, both externally and internally.

So that’s our involvement with MasterBuilt Audio in a nutshell and a summarized history of its development for anyone interested.

Now as for discussing the technology involved with MasterBuilt’s performance, I’m going to wear my distributors hat here and be very frank. We have no interest in publicly illustrating any of their proprietary technology.

In order to address by documentation the understandable skepticism (frankly the same we approach anyone else’s claims), we would need to publicly explain in great technical detail how MasterBuilt achieves its performance. This explanation would inevitably involve a detailed discussions on their competitors and WHY MasterBuilt outperforms them based largely on the errors (from MB’s perspective) they’ve made in their development. Our goal is to market these cables and we’re very comfortable inviting people to hear the difference for themselves, in A/B/X shootouts or otherwise. But there is no logical reason to reveal proprietary information and in the course, educate the competition.

Here’s a quote I’m very fond of from the George R .R. Martin’s Game of Thrones novels, “Words are wind.” I think that sums up any marketing hype nicely. The proof is where rubber meets road in its actual performance. If I could send a full loom of these cables to everyone that wanted to hear the difference for themselves in their system, I would. Unfortunately I can’t afford to do so. Due to the licensing and US manufacturing, this stuff isn’t cheap even at my prices. So I need to be selective. We will continue to demonstrate them at shows, I will continue to send them to people who’ve established themselves prominently in the audio space as credible critics which includes but is not limited to industry press. I will also encourage our dealers and distributors to invest in “loaners” for local customers. But that is as much as I see possible to give people the benefit of my own first hand experiences.

As so many current owners of MasterBuilt have already stated in this thread, other threads and other forums, you simply need to experience it for yourself. I hope you all have that opportunity in the near future. If you’re still reading this wall of text, thanks for taking the time to do so ;)
 

ack

VIP/Donor & WBF Founding Member
May 6, 2010
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Thanks Damon. "Revolutionary product"... strong words.... OK... from your perspective, is there any merit to my postulation that "they are the only ones" with the properties people describe? Or is there competition that comes close and/or still surpasses them, having gone through a "sea of the best"?
 

Damon Von Schweikert

WBF Technical Expert
Sep 15, 2016
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244
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California
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Thanks Damon. "Revolutionary product"... strong words.... OK... from your perspective, is there any merit to my postulation that "they are the only ones" with the properties people describe? Or is there competition that comes close and/or still surpasses them, having gone through a "sea of the best"?

Hi ack. Not in my experience but that's obviously not saying there isn't. I want to be the first to illustrate the obvious; we are the distributor for MasterBuilt Audio and therefore, extremely biased so my opinion needs to be viewed from that perspective first and foremost.

But as someone who makes a living in this industry and has the responsibility of shepherding VSA’s reputation, I'm very thoughtful and sincere when I choose to state my opinion, especially so bluntly with a comment like "revolutionary."

But perhaps I should illustrate it this way. While I think our VSA loudspeaker designs are accurate and correct, I have numerous competitors that think the same and yet, have performance that is unlike ours. Competitors whom I respect and as such, I understand when customers make the very personal choice to buy their products over the ones we offer.

So no, I won't say these are the absolute best cables for every system in every situation, far from it. In fact, I was very curious how the Ultra's would work in tandem with the Wilson speakers as I had already heard MBs with the LAMM amps. What Leif told me has increased the respect I have for Wilson’s designs since he says it was better than what we’ve both heard in the past. He says this was a world-class system, period. I don't know if it's evident in Leif's post but he was floored by what he heard in Steve's sound room and that carry's a lot of water for me.

But if your question is if other manufactures have access to the same conductors used in MasterBuilt’s cables and the Ultra Line specifically, the answer is definitively no. I know that MasterBuilt Audio has an exclusive license to utilize this wire for audio use and that it comes from the US Aerospace industry and is therefore solely manufactured from start to finish here in the US. Based on my previous statement, we have NO interest in revealing any proprietary information. I apologize for the redundancy but I want to be very clear.

I hope that helps address your question.
 
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still-one

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Will the MB cables be on any gear at RMAF next month.
 

ddk

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2013
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Hi Damon,

It's a little confusing who's making what here, is MB the conductor manufacturer or just a 3rd party with license to use this particular conductor in audio related industry assembling wires to your designs?

david

Hi ack. Not in my experience but that's obviously not saying there isn't. I want to be the first to illustrate the obvious; we are the distributor for MasterBuilt Audio and therefore, extremely biased so my opinion needs to be viewed from that perspective first and foremost.

But as someone who makes a living in this industry and has the responsibility of shepherding VSA’s reputation, I'm very thoughtful and sincere when I choose to state my opinion, especially so bluntly with a comment like "revolutionary."

But perhaps I should illustrate it this way. While I think our VSA loudspeaker designs are accurate and correct, I have numerous competitors that think the same and yet, have performance that is unlike ours. Competitors whom I respect and as such, I understand when customers make the very personal choice to buy their products over the ones we offer.

So no, I won't say these are the absolute best cables for every system in every situation, far from it. In fact, I was very curious how the Ultra's would work in tandem with the Wilson speakers as I had already heard MBs with the LAMM amps. What Leif told me has increased the respect I have for the Wilson’s designs since he says it was better than what we’ve both heard in the past. He says this was a world-class system, period. I don't know if it's evident in Leif's post but he was floored by what he heard in Steve's sound room and that carry's a lot of water for me.

But if your question is if other manufactures have access to the same conductors used in MasterBuilt’s cables and the Ultra Line specifically, the answer is definitively no. I know that MasterBuilt Audio has an exclusive license to utilize this wire for audio use and that it comes from the US Aerospace industry and is therefore solely manufactured from start to finished here in the US. Based on my previous statement, we have NO interest in revealing any proprietary information. I apologize for the redundancy but I want to be very clear.

I hope that helps address your question.
 

Leif S

Industry Expert
Feb 13, 2015
770
166
180
California
www.vonschweikert.com
Will the MB cables be on any gear at RMAF next month.

Well this figures, lol. Our initial plan was 2 rooms at RMAF. One room in the tower showing the Endeavor E-5 speakers with VAC and Skogrand. The other room in Atrium showing our VR-55's with the MasterBuilt cables. Since the Atrium will not be finished with the renovations in time for the show, Damon and I decided just to show our Endeavor speakers this year.
 

Damon Von Schweikert

WBF Technical Expert
Sep 15, 2016
114
244
175
California
www.vonschweikert.com
Hi Damon,

It's a little confusing who's making what here, is MB the conductor manufacturer or just a 3rd party with license to use this particular conductor in audio related industry assembling wires to your designs?

david

Hi David,

First off, no one at VSA is involved with the engineering or manufacturing of MB product. We simply distribute it. I'm sorry for the confusion my previous post may have created. As I look back now, I see how I gave that impression. While we did consult on the performance of their designs over the last 8 years (both external cables and our internal signal wire) that was the extent of our development assistance.

The engineers of MasterBuilt Audio have worked for many years in the aerospace industry here in the states. As such, they have access to both it's collected knowledge on signal transmission technology as well as its suppliers. It's this supplier relationship that has given them access to the foundries that produce their conductors and is covered under their licensing agreement.

I hope that helps.
 
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