added a 3rd Studer A-820 Mk2 with both 1/4" and 1/2" heads, guides and hubs

[Mike Lavigne]

been wanting to do this for a while to allow for seamless high quality dubbing. this is a MK2 version with both 1/4" and 1/2" sets of headblocks, guides and hubs.

with this machine I can easily dub either 1/4" or 1/2" to either 1/4" or 1/2" consistently. I will set the work flow up (with Ki's help of course---I will watch and learn from Ki) so it's stock in and out, not involving the King Cello in the dubbing process. my 2 other Studers both have head switches, and they will be my listening machines as they will be able to output to the King Cello for listening. this one will be doing the dubbing only (won't have a direct out head switch) and will output through an XLR cable I have in a conduit under the floor so I can monitor dubbing at my dart preamp.

the new machine is the one in the middle.

 

[Edward Pong]

Looks impression Mike! Congrats

Ed Pong

 

[spiritofmusic]

Mike, I’m sure you’ve explained this before. I remain unsure why you’re big on the dsd rips off vinyl, and now dubbing any source of material to tape. Maybe you can enlighten me one last time .

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, I’m sure you’ve explained this before. I remain unsure why you’re big on the dsd rips off vinyl, and now dubbing any source of material to tape. Maybe you can enlighten me one last time .

hi Marc,

mostly my dsdx2 (128dsd) rips off vinyl 'excitement' was a few years ago (2011-2015) when my digital player was the Playback Designs which was native dsd. those files were 'breakthru' sort of digital to my ears in the context of those times. and I was getting fed a steady diet of those files.....from the same vinyl front end and pressings that I owned. I still enjoy those files today and they still rate as great digital, but more significantly great music, but my perspective on digital has changed and widened considerably. PCM at all sampling rates is no longer 2nd rate. those 128dsd vinyl rips still allow me a great easy access to some of my favorite recordings from my favorite pressings.

I have zero plans to dub other sources to tape. no reason to do it. it won't improve the sound or allow easier access. and I did not need a third Studer to dub from vinyl. I want to make 'perfect' tape dubs from 'great' tapes. and this will be the ticket.

 

[spiritofmusic]

So this is a way to preserve the quality of yr “master” tapes without putting them at undue risk from continued plays?

 

[microstrip]

(...) I will set the work flow up (with Ki's help of course---I will watch and learn from Ki) so it's stock in and out, not involving the King Cello in the dubbing process. (...)

Why not involving the King Cello in the dubbing process?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

So this is a way to preserve the quality of yr “master” tapes without putting them at undue risk from continued plays?

yes; that would be one of many valuable things a great tape dubbing process could do for me. I could make 1/2" dubs of frequently played 1/4" titles I own and then use that without any transfer loss.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Why not involving the King Cello in the dubbing process?

I use a 50 ohm 'zeel' output on the King Cello, which creates an interface conundrum inputting into the dubbing deck. and my King Cello does not provide for any input fine tuning adjustments. if I go stock Studer to stock Studer with a short XLR, both with the same heads, and I set it up for specific tape stock, I get the advantages and elegance of simplicity. and i'm planning on upgrading the input/output cards to trafoless ( transformerless) cards (my 1/2" Studer already has these) which gets closer to the King Cello. I don't want to get into pulling my King Cello in and out of the listening path, I want to simply switch the head switch on the play deck to 'stock output' and proceed.

 

[microstrip]

I use a 50 ohm 'zeel' output on the King Cello, which creates an interface conundrum inputting into the dubbing deck. and my King Cello does not provide for any input fine tuning adjustments. if I go stock Studer to stock Studer with a short XLR, both with the same heads, and I set it up for specific tape stock, I get the advantages and elegance of simplicity. and i'm planning on upgrading the input/output cards to trafoless ( transformerless) cards (my 1/2" Studer already has these) which gets closer to the King Cello. I don't want to get into pulling my King Cello in and out of the listening path, I want to simply switch the head switch on the play deck to 'stock output' and proceed.

Although I understand the argument of simplicity and elegance, I can not understand why you seem to prefer using the inferior electronics in the reproduction section of the master recorder for creating the copies. Do you feel that the King Cello electronics is anyway "tailored" when compared to stock Studer electronics?

 

[rockitman]

Nice Mike. Do you dub all your tapes for back up ? I thought about it in the beginning and dropped the idea. I will be in a pine box long before the current tapes lose fidelity.

 

[astrotoy]

Although I understand the argument of simplicity and elegance, I can not understand why you seem to prefer using the inferior electronics in the reproduction section of the master recorder for creating the copies. Do you feel that the King Cello electronics is anyway "tailored" when compared to stock Studer electronics?

I only have two machines, both ATR-102s. However, I use one always to play, and one to record. the play bypasses the Ampex electronics and plays through my Doshi 3.0 tape preamp. The record uses stock Ampex electronics upon the recommendation of Paul Stubblebine who uses 102's for the dubbing machines for Tape Project. One advantage of the 102 (which doesn't not have the elegant look of the A820) is that I can change headblocks and guides very quickly, about 1-2 minutes. I have 1/4" and 1/2" head blocks for both machines and I can dub any combination of 1/4" and 1/2" tapes. Since the Doshi has IEC, NAB and AES EQ settings, I can also record from NAB to IEC if I want. I have some old 2 track RCA tapes (7.5 ips) that I have copied to 15 ips 2 track. Also some safety tape masters that I have copied from 1/4" to 1/2" which are about as close to a perfect copy as I can get. I have three sets of audio cards for the dubbing machine, and have them set up for the three common types of tape that I use in dubbing.

Larry

 

[Ron Resnick]

Congratulations, Mike! What an amazing trio!

 

[andromedaaudio]

Although I understand the argument of simplicity and elegance, I can not understand why you seem to prefer using the inferior electronics in the reproduction section of the master recorder for creating the copies. Do you feel that the King Cello electronics is anyway "tailored" when compared to stock Studer electronics?

Well even without An external amp i m pretty sure IT runs circles around your " Vivaldi stack"
I would use the word inferiour only in context to the dcs

Nice tape deck Mike but maybe another brand for a change

 

[microstrip]

Well even without An external amp i m pretty sure IT runs circles around your " Vivaldi stack"
I would use the word inferiour only in context to the dcs

Nice tape deck Mike but maybe another brand for a change

Can I ask what is the purpose of your very unfriendly comment? Why are you bringing the Vivaldi stack to an interesting thread on analog electronics?

IMHO if people considered that the stock electronics was superior to the King Cello electronics they would not buy them. It is why I asked Mike, who owns both, about his opinion. For example, in my system, the Bottlehead Eros tube electronics sounds better than the stock recapped Studer A80 electronics, but is noisier.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Its not unfriendly meant its Just a quality ranking afaic.
Some audiophile s act with with a bit disdain regarding studer design electronics

 

[microstrip]

Its not unfriendly meant its Just a quality ranking afaic.
Some audiophile s act with with a bit disdain regarding studer design electronics

Ranking apples with oranges is completely meaningless. Just MHO.

Anyway, I think Fred Thal masterly addressed these issues (standard/audiophile) in another thread a few months ago, nothing new to add on this subject.

 

[andromedaaudio]

You have the thread link.?

What also Comes to play in me regarding digital, is the biggest loss i took in high end audio
I once payed around 10 K euro's to buy the so called hottest wadia digital around/ magazines
Took me 1 month to get rid of this overrated piece of **** at a heavy loss, lol

 

[bonzo75]

Can I ask what is the purpose of your very unfriendly comment? Why are you bringing the Vivaldi stack to an interesting thread on analog electronics?

IMHO if people considered that the stock electronics was superior to the King Cello electronics they would not buy them. It is why I asked Mike, who owns both, about his opinion. For example, in my system, the Bottlehead Eros tube electronics sounds better than the stock recapped Studer A80 electronics, but is noisier.

There is a big discussion on tapes on audionirvana where stock, king cello, and other compares resulted in people preferring Doshi external pre the most. And Otari internals to King cello. I wouldn't know the accurate details but you can read.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Although I understand the argument of simplicity and elegance, I can not understand why you seem to prefer using the inferior electronics in the reproduction section of the master recorder for creating the copies. Do you feel that the King Cello electronics is anyway "tailored" when compared to stock Studer electronics?

no; unlike my impressions of 'other' tape output electronics, I view the King Cello as like the darTZeel, it sounds to me 'less there' and more refined than stock. yet in the case of the A-820, especially with the trafoless cards, stock output still sounds very good. my King Cello is unique in that it has the 50 ohm interface; back in 2008 when I acquired it I tried RCA and XLR and was impressed with neither; then when Charles King was able to install the 50 ohm that was a big step up. so other's comments about the King Cello I don't see as relevant to my situation.

I may end up with the King Cello in the dubbing chain. but I have to learn how to do this dubbing thing properly with stock electronics, and then go from there. see Larry's notes relating to Paul Stubblebine's comments below. if I do insert the King Cello I would need it upgraded with the meters and adjustments. or I could add the Doshi; possibly at some point Ki will allow me to demo his.

I only have two machines, both ATR-102s. However, I use one always to play, and one to record. the play bypasses the Ampex electronics and plays through my Doshi 3.0 tape preamp. The record uses stock Ampex electronics upon the recommendation of Paul Stubblebine who uses 102's for the dubbing machines for Tape Project. One advantage of the 102 (which doesn't not have the elegant look of the A820) is that I can change headblocks and guides very quickly, about 1-2 minutes. I have 1/4" and 1/2" head blocks for both machines and I can dub any combination of 1/4" and 1/2" tapes. Since the Doshi has IEC, NAB and AES EQ settings, I can also record from NAB to IEC if I want. I have some old 2 track RCA tapes (7.5 ips) that I have copied to 15 ips 2 track. Also some safety tape masters that I have copied from 1/4" to 1/2" which are about as close to a perfect copy as I can get. I have three sets of audio cards for the dubbing machine, and have them set up for the three common types of tape that I use in dubbing.

Larry

I think your work flow is ideal; and if I was more knowledgeable I would have tried to just add the additional head blocks and go your same way. but I felt like always switching those things would lead to constant little issues and so I wanted to make it easier/less involved. the Studer A-820 is also about 2-3 minutes to change the headblock, guides, and hubs. and switching EQ from IEC to NAB is two buttons.

 

[dminches]

Mike, I think dubbing with the stock electronics, from one 820 to another, is ideal. I use my Doshi for listening only. It would seem to me that if your goal to create a 2nd version of the original which is as close to the original as possible, using stock would be your best chance to achieve that.