Equi~Tech vs Torus

[dminches]

pretty much how I've done it. the number and size of the ground rods relates to ground resistance and soil PH conditions.

So you have multiple grounding rods?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

So you have multiple grounding rods?

no, only one.....but it's in the ground maybe 4 feet from my Equi=tech panel. I live in a 'rain forest' climate with what I've been told are ideal soil conditions (it was tested at the time). i do not recall the exact info on my ground rod; only that in desert or eastern US areas the soil conditions are more challenging to overcome.

 

[dminches]

My electrician was just here. The panel installation is straightforward.

We talked about the grounding. Currently I have a copper wire running to my main water line and a second run to a zinc rod in the ground. There is a 2nd rod which attaches to the first rod, 6 feet away, which is required by code.

It sounds like I want to run a grounding strap from the panel to the rod outside and figure out what rod to use.

 

[Speedskater]

i have to chime in and agree with this advice. Additionally, having a licensed electrician will also give you an opportunity to check/upgrade the ground in your location which will enhance the performance of all your gear

Once again, the connection to Planet Earth has nothing to do with day-to-day AC power quality. It is there for safety during thunderstorms and other high voltage problem events. Do whatever makes the electrician and the inspector happy.

 

[dminches]

Once again, the connection to Planet Earth has nothing to do with day-to-day AC power quality. It is there for safety during thunderstorms and other high voltage problem events. Do whatever makes the electrician and the inspector happy.

What are you basing you comments on?

 

[microstrip]

Once again, the connection to Planet Earth has nothing to do with day-to-day AC power quality.(...)

Sorry it it not true in reality, where power transformers can suffer from leakage to the secondary and equipment is not designed according to ideal rules. We are debating consumer high end equipment, not military specified and certified equipment. And noise is not just hum!

It is why, for example, some instrumentation research laboratories and facilities specify extremely low resistance ground connections - we do not want to have problems with what your neighbor does in his section.

 

[Speedskater]

What are you basing you comments on?

Every good engineering book and paper on the subject of AC power.

With AC power noise, interference, leakage, lost Neutral and Ground currents have no interest in Planet Earth. They are only interested in getting back to their source which is the power company transformer.

 

[chrisr]

but was the Equi=tech a Wall Mount (10WQ, 7.5WQ, 5WQ) system? and how was the headroom (collective system rated power needs verses kva).

you can't compare the 'stand alone' boxes to the wall mount units.

I respectfully disagree, but I would be curious to hear other people's takes on this.

I am currently considering a 90A Torus wall mount unit versus the same 90A Torus standalone unit (Torus AVR 90, which has a 90 amp balanced input unit). So headroom is the same either way. The stand alone unit takes a 50A, 250V twist lock balanced plug. If EVERYTHING in the audio system plugs into the same power unit, I have a hard time seeing why a wall mount unit would be better than the same version of a standalone unit and the wall mount unit may actually be worse.

With a standalone unit all audio equipment plugs directly into the back of the power unit. Therefore, the only external influence is your power cords.

Whereas with a wall mount unit, the audio equipment plugs into a number of branch circuit receptacles that are in-turn wired back to the wall mount unit. So with the wall mount unit, you introduce more variables with wiring from the wall mount unit to your receptacles as well as the receptacles themselves. Also, EMI, RFI, and compatibility influence the wiring over these distances.

I can see where a wall mount unit can be useful when you need receptacles in various locations, particularly when you can place a receptacle at a remote media server in another room (so you can ensure that your remotely located devices share the same power, neutral, and ground as the audio devices in your listening room)(otherwise you are introducing different grounds and neutrals into your audio system through the interconnections to these devices.)

 

[dminches]

While it isn’t always the case, in the case of power I do think size matters.

I just had my 10WQ installed today. It took 4 adult males to lift the unit up so that it could be attached to the wall. Thus, my guess is that the transformer in this unit is going to be able to accomplish more than the transformer in the shelf unit.

Just speculation since I not compared them in my system.

 

[chrisr]

While it isn’t always the case, in the case of power I do think size matters.

I just had my 10WQ installed today. It took 4 adult males to lift the unit up so that it could be attached to the wall. Thus, my guess is that the transformer in this unit is going to be able to accomplish more than the transformer in the shelf unit.

Just speculation since I not compared them in my system.

I am not familiar with the Equi-Tech units. Regarding the Torus units, I believe the transformers are the same for the wall mount vs standalone units. For the 90A units, the weights are similar 233 lbs vs. 200 lbs which makes sense because of the extra breakers, case work, etc.

 

[Pb Blimp]

Sorry it it not true in reality, where power transformers can suffer from leakage to the secondary and equipment is not designed according to ideal rules. We are debating consumer high end equipment, not military specified and certified equipment. And noise is not just hum!

It is why, for example, some instrumentation research laboratories and facilities specify extremely low resistance ground connections - we do not want to have problems with what your neighbor does in his section.

Good luck with that......I have been trying to explain this to Kevin for a long time. You may be more articulate than I, but I am not sure you are going anywhere.

 

[Pb Blimp]

I respectfully disagree, but I would be curious to hear other people's takes on this.

I am currently considering a 90A Torus wall mount unit versus the same 90A Torus standalone unit (Torus AVR 90, which has a 90 amp balanced input unit). So headroom is the same either way. The stand alone unit takes a 50A, 250V twist lock balanced plug. If EVERYTHING in the audio system plugs into the same power unit, I have a hard time seeing why a wall mount unit would be better than the same version of a standalone unit and the wall mount unit may actually be worse.

With a standalone unit all audio equipment plugs directly into the back of the power unit. Therefore, the only external influence is your power cords.

Whereas with a wall mount unit, the audio equipment plugs into a number of branch circuit receptacles that are in-turn wired back to the wall mount unit. So with the wall mount unit, you introduce more variables with wiring from the wall mount unit to your receptacles as well as the receptacles themselves. Also, EMI, RFI, and compatibility influence the wiring over these distances.

I can see where a wall mount unit can be useful when you need receptacles in various locations, particularly when you can place a receptacle at a remote media server in another room (so you can ensure that your remotely located devices share the same power, neutral, and ground as the audio devices in your listening room)(otherwise you are introducing different grounds and neutrals into your audio system through the interconnections to these devices.)

I wonder if you and Mike are just getting the terms mixed up between "stand alone" and "wall mount." I suspect Mike is referring to the 15 to 20 amp 'table top units" when he references the term "standalone" versus the big 60 to 100 amp "wall mount" units. Its about amp rating not the descriptive term. Of course I could be completely wrong.....

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I respectfully disagree, but I would be curious to hear other people's takes on this.

I am currently considering a 90A Torus wall mount unit versus the same 90A Torus standalone unit (Torus AVR 90, which has a 90 amp balanced input unit). So headroom is the same either way. The stand alone unit takes a 50A, 250V twist lock balanced plug. If EVERYTHING in the audio system plugs into the same power unit, I have a hard time seeing why a wall mount unit would be better than the same version of a standalone unit and the wall mount unit may actually be worse.

With a standalone unit all audio equipment plugs directly into the back of the power unit. Therefore, the only external influence is your power cords.

Whereas with a wall mount unit, the audio equipment plugs into a number of branch circuit receptacles that are in-turn wired back to the wall mount unit. So with the wall mount unit, you introduce more variables with wiring from the wall mount unit to your receptacles as well as the receptacles themselves. Also, EMI, RFI, and compatibility influence the wiring over these distances.

I can see where a wall mount unit can be useful when you need receptacles in various locations, particularly when you can place a receptacle at a remote media server in another room (so you can ensure that your remotely located devices share the same power, neutral, and ground as the audio devices in your listening room)(otherwise you are introducing different grounds and neutrals into your audio system through the interconnections to these devices.)

when I made my 'can't compare' claim, I was referring to 20amp 110-120v plug in boxes compared to 'big-boy' 70amp 220v 5kVa and up hard wired panels.

50A 250V twist lock connected boxes are equivalent to the large hard wired panels in concept. likely there might be some differences in performance, but I'd be guessing about what they would be. possibly the 400 pound Equi=tech 10WQ with the Nema Steel 12 cabinet might have build advantages over a stand alone box......or not.

if you plug your power cords into the stand alone box, it also means the transformer is in the room in proximity to your gear.....a mixed blessing.

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . . some instrumentation research laboratories and facilities specify extremely low resistance ground connections . . .

I know this to be true.

 

[amadeus]

Frantz,

I accept that a properly implemented isolation transformer can improve the quality of the mains. It can provide noise and harmonics filtering as well as some short time transient energy, and in balanced form minimize mains leakage currents . However, IMHO most of the "balanced" power tales are not real, and people mix the real improvements with noise rejection with characteristics that do not exist. I also have a negative bias towards the balanced power as I find it completely inappropriate for domestic use of audio amateurs for safety reasons - my love for good sound does not overcome electrical safety regulations, particularly as I live in a 230V country. I have no experience with it, but can easily accept that for large systems with many pieces of equipment, long cables and complicated wiring, such as professional studios, the Equi-Tech can be a good thing.

My priority list is similar to yours. And my first days with the PSAudio P10 are confirming it - I will comment on it after the "wow effect" ceases, but it seems I have bought a new (better sounding) CD player!

Can you tell me why do you think Balanced power is not safe?? You wil accidentally touch 115 volt instead of 230 volt which is much more less dangerous!

 

[microstrip]

Can you tell me why do you think Balanced power is not safe?? You wil accidentally touch 115 volt instead of 230 volt which is much more less dangerous!

Balanced power is not safe because it bypasses the distribution board differential protection, as the neutral path is broken. The only way to solve the problem is fitting a GFCI breaker at the output of the balancing transformer. As far as I know (I can be wrong, please correct me if so) , balanced power mains is not legal in the CE for domestic use.

 

[LL21]

Hi Micro,

How is Torus Balanced Power able to sell in CE if illegal? Or is their balanced power different?

Torus Power Products for Continental Europe

Torus Power Supplies AVR Series, AVR2 Series, RM Series, TOT Series to the CE market.

www.toruspower.com

 

[amadeus]

Balanced power is not safe because it bypasses the distribution board differential protection, as the neutral path is broken. The only way to solve the problem is fitting a GFCI breaker at the output of the balancing transformer. As far as I know (I can be wrong, please correct me if so) , balanced power mains is not legal in the CE for domestic use.

I am in contact whit Equi=Tech i will check and ask the opinion of them and share thans in advance!

 

[K3RMIT]

It would be interesting to know if the Equi=tech ameliorates sound quality mainly because it is a quality insulating/filter transformer or because its balancing features. The best suggestion would be comparing its performance using a grounded extreme or the middle tap (balanced mode). As I can easily imagine that its owners do not want to carry the experiment, I will have to wait until someday I have an Equi=tech.

The balance tech is above any simple iso I feel.

 

[K3RMIT]

Balanced power is not safe because it bypasses the distribution board differential protection, as the neutral path is broken. The only way to solve the problem is fitting a GFCI breaker at the output of the balancing transformer. As far as I know (I can be wrong, please correct me if so) , balanced power mains is not legal in the CE for domestic use.

In a balanced iso the center tap is bonded to ground making it neutral potential. This lowers common mode noise , they also have emi /rfi filters. Nec art 647 shows what is allowed it’s on the website . I thought the use of a balanced transformer using a 230 phase to phase on primary helps in dc offset where most distortion of this type is from 125 phase to neural / ground types. in addition the large reduction of common mode noise I think is why this type product makes sense . If local even better but the method used to ground the secondary center tap matters . I think it needs to be a large over sized wire at main breaker bonding source in panel . Over sized utility pipe with a double clean ground clamps with above nec code gauge copper wire is needed. The rod or in some areas 2 rods must be at same bonding point .I would think a ground collector block works best. nec code dictates any form of isolation or change in voltage potential needs it’s own ground using building steel or building current grounding system. lastly I think audio in most cases should be in a phase to phase voltage potential in the USA of course. doing so greatly reduces many types of noise.