Experience with Torus All-in-One 12KVA Power Conditioner "Chemistry" w/ MSB Components

[battles]

Hi all,

Was interested in hearing forum members experience utilizing this Torus Power Conditioner, and in particular with MSB components. For the last three years, it has served as the electrical/power source for my dedicated listening system. From it I run three dedicated / isolated 20 amp circuits that power the system described in my signature below. I had blindly assumed that it was providing plenty of power and headroom for my gear vs. impeding its performance. That was until a couple weeks ago when a local MSB dealer paid me a visit and immediately suggested that I grab a cheap 30 foot extension cord from my garage, plug all my components into it (specifically, an MSB S202 amp and Shunyata Denali (that conditions power for my sources)) and then plug said cheap 16 gauge extension cord into a random general purpose power receptacle in my listening room. Low and behold, the compression and congestion in my system disappeared and became much more extended, dynamic and effortless. With that said, before reconfiguring my power configuration, which would likely entail bypassing the Torus All-In-One panel and placing the dedicated circuits in a standard sub panel, I'd value input from dealers/members who have experience with the Torus All-in-One panels...were they a net positive or negative to the sound, and in my particular case, could other issues exist, such as a poor ground that could be contributing to the impairment of sound quality? Obviously, I'm hopeful that I can continue to keep the All-in-One in my "power path" but not at the expensive of sound quality.

Thanks in advance!

 

[mtemur]

Torus or any other filter has to be placed at close proximity of the audio setup. So close that component power cords have to be connected directly to the outlets of Torus/filter. It is a must. Dedicated line has to be before Torus not after. That’s the only way to minimize negative effects like compression. The big part of your problem is the result of this situation. I never noticed any negative effects of Torus but I didn’t try it at home. Eventually a little bit of compression may still exist cause it’s inevitable with transformer based filter/conditioners.

The best is to run dedicated solid core cables from meter to the receptacles back of the setup. No multi stranded wire can be good enough. Again solid core is a must.

 

[battles]

Torus or any other filter has to be placed at close proximity of the audio setup. So close that component power cords have to be connected directly to the outlets of Torus/filter. It is a must. Dedicated line has to be before Torus not after. That’s the only way to minimize negative effects like compression. The big part of your problem is the result of this situation. I never noticed any negative effects of Torus but I didn’t try it at home. Eventually a little bit of compression may still exist cause it’s inevitable with transformer based filter/conditioners.

The best is to run dedicated solid core cables from meter to the receptacles back of the setup. No multi stranded wire can be good enough. Again solid core is a must.

Thank you, mtemur. As you likely inferred, the Torus AIO is not a standard in rack power conditioner, it is a massive breaker panel (like an Equitech) that has 24 isolated breakers and a large 12KVA transformer. I’ve included its product description below. The three dedicated circuits that I run from the Torus AIO to my listening room are 8 gauge solid core 120 feet in length romex that pigtail into short cryro’d romex that terminate into top of the line furutech outlets into which my 200 watt S202 amp and Denali Shunyata connect. i cannot shorten the length of the romex runs. Think the best that I could potentially do is place a sub panel right before the Torus AIO that would feed directly from the main 600 amp electrical panel that is connected to the meter. If you wouldn’t mind, please take a look at my current electrical power configuration in the sketch attached. Will illustrate what I’m currently working with.

thanks again!

———————-

TORUS AIO PRODUCT DESCRIPTION​

The Torus Power All-in-One (AIO) provides a comprehensive approach to whole system power conditioning.
The stand-alone electrical panel has two sections. The top section is pre-wired with 24 industrial grade 20A bolt-in breakers, which are fed by robust 1 ¼” x ¼” all copper buss bars. Advanced surge suppression is provided. Clean, isolated power is supplied to the breakers by a Toroidal Isolation transformer mounted in the lower section of the panel.
The AIO uses a separately derived equipment ground (from the isolated ground) making troubleshooting ground loops much easier, and providing an extremely quiet noise floor. Models are rated up to 100Amps, with 240 V or 208 V inputs provided.
The AIO was developed for the professional recording studio industry by Arthur Kelm of Ground One in California, and is now widely used in discriminating consumer and professional applications.

SPECIFICATIONS:​

• Chassis panel: Board
• Input voltage: 240 V
• Output voltage: 120 V or 240 V
• Output current: 104A at 120 V or 52A at 240 V
• • Power: 12500 VA
• Frequency: 50/60 Hz
• Output breakers 24 X 20A
• Weight: 282 lb
• Dimensions (W x H x D): 20 x 8 x 74 in

 

[mtemur]

If you wouldn’t mind, please take a look at my current electrical power configuration in the sketch attached. Will illustrate what I’m currently working with.

I’m not an electrical engineer but I still recommend running a dedicated line (solid core) directly from main breaker board (preferably from meter) to Shunyata power conditioner and skipping Torus. IMHO it will be the best option for uncompressed dynamics. Additionally, skipping Shunyata together with Torus and connecting dedicated line to a group of receptacles might enable better sound. You need to try this IOT decide whether or not using Shunyata but Torus must be skipped in this current situation. There can not be a dedicated line or long runs of cable after a filter or transformer like Torus. This is how it should be IOT limit it’s impact on compression.

 

[Kingrex]

I have sold a lot of Torus and never had the reaults you talk about. You describe an installation that is not ideal.
First, the load side circuits of a Torus should never be longer than 40 feet. Best to be 10 to 25. The person selling it to you should know this. This goes for any isolation transformer.

Don't plug some other conditioner into a Torus.

I have never heard of 8 awg Romex style cable that is solid core. They are all stranded in the USA.

#8 stranded is sort of bright and fast. Not a lot of body.

Using a pigtail to size down #8 makes a mess of the circuit. Overlapping fields. Get rid of the pigtail if you can. I bet your #8 is stranded. Get rid of the pigtail and splay the wire to wrap the screw under 1 yoke

Your electrician probably drilled a single hole and pulled all 3 branch wires through it. Thats a big mistake. 1 wire, 1 hole spaced 4 to 6 inch between holed, 1 wire 1 duplex direct. No pigtails. .

I would never have sold or set up your electrical that way. You are way better off using one of those #8 and using a RM40 to power just the audio gear. Put your home theatre/TV on some other circuit or conditioner. Or get a different Torus for that.
With a RM40, modify the cord end to accept a twist lock 30A receptacle that can accept a #8 wire.

Sorry you were mislead by a salesman. A 12kva core is way oversized. And I am not such a fan of that unit. Its designed for a recording studio where its in a electrical room next to the comtrol room and all the branches were used. It had aluminum in it too. I hate aluminum.

As a wall mount, I would have put a WM45 on the wall just outside the room feeding your audio, fed with with a NM-B #8 or #6 and ran 3 x #10 solid NM-B to 3 duplex.
If you could not get the WM on the wall, I would have used the Rack Mount RM40.

I don't know who sold you the unit. I have no idea your options. I would try to get them to take it back. Its the wrong device for the job.

 

[Kingrex]

FWIW a shunyata might sound great on MSB front end gear. I have found amps run better on an appropriate Torus. You don't want all your gear on one circuit. You want 3. One for amps, One for digital, one for analog. Minimum. I would have put 1 unfiltered at the rack also for the Shunyata.

 

[Kingrex]

@battles
What have you done. Anything?

 

[wil]

FWIW a shunyata might sound great on MSB front end gear. I have found amps run better on an appropriate Torus. You don't want all your gear on one circuit. You want 3. One for amps, One for digital, one for analog. Minimum. I would have put 1 unfiltered at the rack also for the Shunyata.

Rex, just for clarification, When you say you don’t want all your gear on one circuit, you’re not saying you would have a separate Torus for digital and amps are you?

 

[Kingrex]

I think of it this way. If I have a 2 channel stereo and I want to focus on peak sound, I would keep other devices such as AV equipment on a different circuit and different power conditioner.

This is where it gets a little more convoluted.

If I have a Torus like a Wall mount, that comes with 3 to 5 output breakers. Each breaker is tied to a independent output core that wraps a common primary. So you have some isolation between equipment. So yes, I would have 3 to 5 duplex in the room. 1 for amps, 1 for digital, 1 for analog.

With a single large high output core, you don't have as much isolation between gear, but you have enormous potential power in the core for large amplifiers to draw from. And in this situation, I would still run individual branches for amps, analog and digital. I want the wire from the CB to duplex to be limited in what is powers.

If I have a room with no electrical room filter, I would run a minimum 2 circuits to the room. Preferably 3. Its not that much more to run an extra circuit. With multiple, you have options.

If you have a RM20 like you have, I would not hesitate to put everything in the RM20. But I would also experiment with other configurations of how I plug the gear in. Everyones system is unique. The larger Torus such as the RM40 have 2 cores. The RM60 has 3 cores. So in essence, the larger Torus are like adding multiple smaller units. Kevin with Torus says he finds a single larger Torus knocks down noise better than multiple small ones. I love the RM20. As I go larger, I prefer a wall mount out of the room. And I like a Benjamin panel distributing power from a single high output core. Benjamin is all copper the way I have them build the units. The unit the OP has, I am pretty sure its an Eaton Distribution in the Torus all in one. Eaton does not manufacture any panel with copper neutrals. That is why I went with SqD and Benjamin. They do make all copper.

 

[thedudeabides]

Hi Rex,

I think you might have scared the guy off.

 

[Kingrex]

I'm hummed someone sold him a commercial unit and landed it so far away.

 

[Kvali1]

Hi, all I wanted to just mention that I recently had a Torus wall mount transformer installed between my main panel and my subpanel. The results so far have been phenomenal. Blacker backgrounds bigger, sounds stage. Everything just seems more quiet and cleaner. I do still use a Stromtank S 2500 for my sources but the mono blocks , my active speakers and subwoofers are all to the wall that is being isolated by the Torus, (as is the Stromtank for that matter.) I think these wall mount transformers are legit and I highly recommend them. The team at torus is phenomenal. Feel free to reach out to them with any questions. Customer service is top-notch. Ross Whitney is super helpful and knowledgeable!

 

[Kingrex]

View attachment 137956View attachment 137957Hi, all I wanted to just mention that I recently had a Torus wall mount transformer installed between my main panel and my subpanel. The results so far have been phenomenal. Blacker backgrounds bigger, sounds stage. Everything just seems more quiet and cleaner. I do still use a Stromtank S 2500 for my sources but the mono blocks , my active speakers and subwoofers are all to the wall that is being isolated by the Torus, (as is the Stromtank for that matter.) I think these wall mount transformers are legit and I highly recommend them. The team at torus is phenomenal. Feel free to reach out to them with any questions. Customer service is top-notch. Ross Whitney is super helpful and knowledgeable!

I agree.

 

[battles]

@battles
What have you done. Anything?

Hi Rex, et al,

My sincerest apologies for my late response to your thoughtful and descriptive message. I haven’t been on WBF in months. FYI- this is the same Blake with whom you’ve been corresponding via email regarding sub panel selection.

I’m very disappointed to hear how I was misled into implementing the Torus AIO for the wrong use case. And, even if it had been the right use case, it was not applied correctly for the reasons you point out. Sadly, I likely have wasted $50K between material and labor cost pertaining this “wrong implementation”, and to add insult to injury, it is likely also degrading the sonics of all my meridian audio ceiling speakers and home theatre speakers that are home run to it. Alas, we live and learn.

Given your feedback and others, and my conclusion that my 2-channel sounds better plugged into a general house duplex vs my current dedicated AIO circuits, on Monday the electricians will be at my house for a week long undertaking the following project to bypass the Torus AIO in the delivery of power to my two channel system. The scope of the project below reflects input from MSB and your recommendation regarding sub panel choice:

- from my 600A service entry SQ D distribution panel, I am running a 125A 120v 1/0-1/0-1/0 + 8 AWG ground circuit (all conductors will be individual wires) to a sub panel (running the extra hot, will allow me to add a 240v isolation transformer in the future) in PVC conduit; may run an isolated ground too though most of the white papers I've read do not say this helps sonics

- Was hoping to source a bolt-in sub panel that could be recessed in a 16 inch stud bay; however, the only sub panel that meets that spec according to you is manufactured by Benjamin Electric. However, it's a $7K investment and have heard that the cost doesn't warrant the "improvement". Given this, have consulted Rex and a couple consultants who recommend SQ D's QO panel. They seem to prefer this line over Eaton's CH line. Unclear why.

- as an aside, I did see Shunyata's white paper that recommends hydraulic electromagnetic breakers, but I don't know whether they are worth the cost or even compatible with the QO or CH sub panels?

- Three 25-30' 120v 20A circuits will run between the sub panel and my listening room GTX-D NCF rhodium duplexes. As planned, these will be 8AWG romex runs; however, I understand that you prefer 10AWG. I could run either gauge and wish I knew which gauge would provide better sound for my components. MSB prefers 8AWG for this length of circuit. Besides yourself, if anyone has tried both gauges and has an opinion, please weigh in!!!! I have cryo’d 10 AWG romex already on hand and heard about Audience’s in wall wire. I’m happy to spend a few extra bucks on the latter if it’s worth it.

- If I do run an isolated ground to the duplexes, it as planned will be 8 gauge.. Of course, all wires will be cut to the same length

- amp will plug into the wall, while my other components into a Shunyata Denali 6000v2. I also own a SilverCircle 5kVA SE isolation transformer power conditioner into which I could plug my amp and/or Denali. Let me know if you or other folks have an opinion.

- MSB likes a thin layer of sliver paste while some don't...wish there were consensus

- all hot and neutral conductors in circuits will be twisted ~6-12 inches per MSB's recommendation (this will be a best effort given the size of the 1/0). Ground wire will be left untwisted. Question: for a 240v circuit which of the conductors (ie, two hots and one neutral) should be twisted and which should not?

- I am considering installing a 25KVa Trystar Isolation transformer as the 1/0 circuit enters the sub panel, but this will come in the future. A wall mount isolation transformer will not work in my case.

- I may add some supplemental ground rods...we will see

Rex greatly value yours and others’ feedback to my scope. If I am to make changes to the latter, I need to let my electricians know asap!

Thanks,
Blake

 

[Kingrex]

Hi Rex, et al,

My sincerest apologies for my late response to your thoughtful and descriptive message. I haven’t been on WBF in months. FYI- this is the same Blake with whom you’ve been corresponding via email regarding sub panel selection.

I’m very disappointed to hear how I was misled into implementing the Torus AIO for the wrong use case. (Who told you to use this? They are designed for recording studio. Ross, Art?)And, even if it had been the right use case, it was not applied correctly for the reasons you point out. Sadly, I likely have wasted $50K between material and labor cost pertaining this “wrong implementation”, and to add insult to injury, it is likely also degrading the sonics of all my meridian audio ceiling speakers and home theatre speakers that are home run to it. Alas, we live and learn.

Given your feedback and others, and my conclusion that my 2-channel sounds better plugged into a general house duplex vs my current dedicated AIO circuits, on Monday the electricians will be at my house for a week long undertaking the following project to bypass the Torus AIO in the delivery of power to my two channel system. The scope of the project below reflects input from MSB and your recommendation regarding sub panel choice:

- from my 600A service entry SQ D distribution panel, (panel or Iine. This is where you want to start the all copper grounds and neutras. Search ebay for used ILine)I am running a 125A 120v 1/0-1/0-1/0 + 8 AWG ground circuit (all conductors will be individual wires) to a sub panel (running the extra hot, will allow me to add a 240v isolation transformer in the future) in PVC (use SER. Good geometry, same quality of conductor material) conduit; may run an isolated ground (No in PVC. ONLY STEEL) (Buy, yes to a full boat plus ground for feeders and branch wire. But all feedet boatd and branch circuits in individual raceays) too though most of the white papers I've read do not say this helps sonics

- Was hoping to source a bolt-in sub panel that could be recessed in a 16 inch stud bay; (I may have said Benjamin only, SQD does have a NQ thats 14.5 wide. I don't remember if its 3 phase or single phase. And its next to impossible to get all copper. I actually found 8 more sets of lugs for my stock. I have enough for 22 panels, then I'm out.)  a however, the only sub panel that meets that spec according to you is manufactured by Benjamin Electric. However, it's a $7K investment and have heard that the cost doesn't warrant the "improvement". (Even with Benjamin, I have to get inside them and tune them up. Its a great foundation.) Given this, have consulted Rex and a couple consultants who recommend SQ D's QO panel. They seem to prefer this line over Eaton's CH line. Unclear why.

- as an aside, I did see Shunyata's white paper that recommends hydraulic electromagnetic breakers, but I don't know whether they are worth the cost or even compatible with the QO or CH sub panels?

- Three 25-30' 120v 20A circuits will run between the sub panel and my listening room GTX-D NCF rhodium duplexes. As planned, these will be 8AWG romex runs; however, I understand that you prefer 10AWG. I could run either gauge and wish I knew which gauge would provide better sound for my components. MSB prefers 8AWG for this length of circuit. (Bla bla) Besides yourself, if anyone has tried both gauges and has an opinion, please weigh in!!!! I have cryo’d 10 AWG romex (Absolutely use the cryo 10. Thats great wire. If you have a way to pull a loose run from your panel to your listening room and land it in a duplex. You should. Plug your amp into it. Then try flipping the wire in the opposite direction and listening again. You may hear a difference. Pick the orientation you like and stick to it.
dlualready on hand and heard about Audience’s in wall wire. (( That's just a quality made cocommercia MC cable they possibly cryogenically treated or something else.) You can buy a roll for about a dollar fifty a foot.)) I’m happy to spend a few extra bucks on the latter if it’s worth it.

- If I do run an isolated ground to the duplexes, it as planned will be 8 gauge.. Of course, all wires will be cut to the same length (????? Your in PVC. This is a bad idea. Parallel ground could make a loop)

- amp will plug into the wall, while my other components into a Shunyata Denali 6000v2. I also own a SilverCircle 5kVA SE isolation transformer power conditioner into which I could plug my amp and/or Denali. Let me know if you or other folks have an opinion.

- MSB likes a thin layer of sliver paste while some don't...wish there were consensus (plenty has been said about silver oxidation an arching)

ll hot and neutral conductors in circuits will be twisted ~6-12 inches per MSB's recommendation (this will be a best effort given the size of the 1/0). Ground wire will be left untwisted. Question: for a 240v circuit which of the conductors (ie, two hots and one neutral) should be twisted and which should not? ( Run SER cable.). (Don't run 2 circuits in the same pipe. Space the circuits 6 inches apoart when running parallel in walls and ceilings/floors)

- I am considering installing a 25KVa Trystar Isolation transformer as the 1/0 circuit enters the sub panel, but this will come in the future. A wall mount isolation transformer will not work in my case. ( Tristar looks like a industrial iisolationt transformer. I know you had a bad experience, but a Torus. Isolation transformer are one of the best out there.) (Rex)

- I may add some supplemental ground rods...we will see

Rex greatly value yours and others’ feedback to my scope. If I am to make changes to the latter, I need to let my electricians know asap!

Thanks,
Blake

For some reason it broke in 3 and I don't know how to fix it. Mr responses Bold/Italic.
Rex

 

[battles]

Thanks so much, Rex!

Kindly let me know if I’m accurately interpreting your suggested changes to my scope in the summary below:

1. If my main 600A SQ D distribution panel is not an I-Line Series, consider swapping it out
2. Do not run individual 1/0 conductors. Instead run 1/0 SER wire. Some clarifying questions:

(A) Is the noise canceling geometry of the SER cable as good as twisting individual 1/0 wires? My understanding is that all the wires within an SER jacket are twisted together, including the ground wire. Isn’t the ideal geometry having the hot and neutral conductors twisted with the ground wire free and loose?

(A2) if pulling SER wire is too difficult, I assume you would be OK running manually twisted individual 1/0 wires?

(B) when you say NO PVC conduit, only use steel…are you referring to the conduit for the SER wire or for the isolated ground? Or both? My understanding was that PVC is better for long circuits since steel conduit could interact or generate inductance on the circuit

(B2) if it meets code, can SER wire be run outside of conduit?

(C) would you use the ground wire in the SER jacket as a safety ground while using the ground wire in the separate steel conduit as an isolated ground for the duplexes?

(D) If I told you that I don’t have the ability to add a second conduit to pull a second SER circuit to create a 240v circuit in the future, could I still adapt the conductors in the single SER wire to deliver 240v without much sacrifice?

(E) if I’m going through all this trouble to run this SER circuit, for your money, would you increase it to a 2/0 SER wire considering this circuit will be around 200 feet?

(F) Stating the obvious, I assume there is no need to twist an SER wire to improve noise cancellation.

3. You recommend running an isolated ground to the sub panel and duplexes. Some clarifying questions:

(A) for the isolated ground wire running from the service entrance panel to the sub panel, how far should its steel conduit be from the conduit containing the SER wire?

(B) what gauge wire should this ground be from the SE to the sub panel? From the sub panel to the duplexes?

4. Regarding sub panel selection, sounds like you are still recommending the QO given my time constraints

5. You strongly recommend cryo’d 10AWG (vs 8AWG) a 30 foot run. Question:

(A) should the safety ground wire in the romex jacket be twisted with the hot and neutral conductors? If not should it be removed and run outside the jacket?

(B) if code does not require it, should the duplex circuits be placed in conduit? How about the isolated ground wires running to the duplexes?

I’ll email you separately about how I ended up with the AIO.

THANKS AGAIN!!!

 

[Kingrex]

I think I gotta start over.
SER cable is service entrance rated. It's like a big romex cable. It takes no metal or PVC raceway. It's extremely easy to pull from one place to another.

The geometry isn't so much about noise rereduction. You have to twist tighter than you're ever going to twist 1/0 to reject noise. It's more about keeping even inductance and capacitants.

I was asking if your panel was ILine, or just a NQ panel, because ILine panels are highly configurable. NQ Panels too but its much harder to get the parts. Leave it alone. Its a good foundation. Would not hurt to remove the feeder breaker to the subpanel and deoxit clean the feet and bus. Same for neutrals and grounds terminations.

Run 2 raceway of SER. Don't get an extra wire and feed a second something while sharing a neutral and ground with the first fed device.

And why 1/0. Its a stereo. #2 is usually the largest I spec. #4 NM-B is excellent as it has a solid #8 ground. I lost where you listed your system. If its multiple rooms with multiple systems, then 1/0 makes sense. And also why a Torus pounded with that much noise is the wrong piece. Dedicate a Torus to 1 system.

Isolated grounds.
If you run wire in a steel pipe, a isolated ground can be beneficial. If you run wire in a PVC pipe, the isolated ground has no benefit at all. What are you isolating. Nothing.

I like PVC, NM-B, SER raceways. Art K like steel raceways. But like I told you in a PM, he's servicing a different clientell.

 

[Hificlips]

View attachment 137956View attachment 137957Hi, all I wanted to just mention that I recently had a Torus wall mount transformer installed between my main panel and my subpanel. The results so far have been phenomenal. Blacker backgrounds bigger, sounds stage. Everything just seems more quiet and cleaner. I do still use a Stromtank S 2500 for my sources but the mono blocks , my active speakers and subwoofers are all to the wall that is being isolated by the Torus, (as is the Stromtank for that matter.) I think these wall mount transformers are legit and I highly recommend them. The team at torus is phenomenal. Feel free to reach out to them with any questions. Customer service is top-notch. Ross Whitney is super helpful and knowledgeable!

How many KVA does your Torus have? Just curious.

 

[Kvali1]

How many KVA does your Torus have? Just curious.

Hi! It’s the WM-208-240P-2x120S-14.4K-TVSS model , and i believe the 14.4 also is the kva; my understanding is that In practical terms it’s two phase of 60amp each . The team at torus will go through all your gear and calculate which unit fits your needs best; I went a bigger model because I have a lot of gear in my listening room and wanted overhead in case I upgraded in the future.