YG introduces the InVincible, 21" all-aluminum 6000W sub!

[asiufy]

From YG:

"InVincible was created as a truly extreme solution, a no-holds-barred assault on everything deemed possible in the sub-bass realm. As with everything that YGA produces this sub-bass speaker is created in their state of the art machine shop in Colorado. YGA pushed the limits once again using their CNC machines to produce the largest BilletCore air-craft grade aluminum driver ever made into an impressive 21” diameter driver. The U.S. made class D module acts as a dedicated built-in amplifier, boasting up to 6,000 watts of RMS power for unrestricted dynamics. The modular approach to the design easily allows integration of one or two subs. While the double walled CNC machined aluminum sealed cabinet, a box with in a box design, minimizes vibrations and eliminates time delays."

 

[asiufy]

Of course, event @ Alma with it, in early 2019!

More info here:

https://www.yg-acoustics.com/product/invincible

 

[Ron Resnick]

This is a very interesting design, Alex. A 21” diameter driver is very impressive! (LL21 are you seeing this?)

What is the thinking behind the drivers facing each other but slightly offset? Won’t this result in some cancellation?

 

[Folsom]

Won’t this result in some cancellation?

It depends on whether their phase is opposite or not. But even if it was the wavelengths are so long that it would still be hard to get a good even cancellation.

But the push-push (bipole, sorta) cancels vibrations in the cabinet.

 

[asiufy]

Ron,

Not privy to the design details yet, hopefully I'll learn more when we have them here and we get a visit from the YG rep!

Here's what the website says:

"The unique layout sports dual, opposing-yet-tilted drivers. It combines the
freedom from vibration of a push-push setup, with the ease of room-integration
typically associated with front-firing subwoofers. The “flipped” arrangement, with
enclosures on both ends rather than in-between the woofers, minimizes their
spacing thus further easing room-placement."

 

[16hz lover]

Bet they will be the same price as some mortgages. Higher the price, fewer buyers. Going to be interested in seeing how much travel/ displacement the drivers have.

The 6000 watts is available at 230 volts only, otherwise only 3000 watts at 120 volts.

 

[Ron Resnick]

It will be interesting to see the pricing versus a six pack of REL No. 25s or two Magico Q-subs or two Wilson Master Chronosonic Subwoofers.

 

[ddk]

I have to shake my head at the absurdity of it all, 6000 watts to drive a couple of woofers in a domestic environment! Anyone else see how ridiculous all this has become?

david

 

[NorthStar]

For very large rooms and with movies, not really.
_____

This paragraph had me shaking a little.

"Innovations include, first and foremost, the largest BilletCore™ driver ever made
at 53 cm diameter (21”). The cone is machined from a massive 30 kg (66 lb) slab
of aircraft-grade aluminum. When finished it weighs 411 grams (14.5 oz). The
basket is also CNC-machined in-house, then precisely assembled from 238 parts
using lab-grade alignment and tolerances."

30 kg slab of aluminum to get less than half pound! Do they recycle the rest?

Also, I searched for its price but without success. It must be brand new.

 

[Folsom]

I have to shake my head at the absurdity of it all, 6000 watts to drive a couple of woofers in a domestic environment! Anyone else see how ridiculous all this has become?

david

Not really, because it's classD. Also the thing with subwoofers is that you can't really correct them very well so you're better off making them require the most wattage possible to make them move just enough. Servo subs work, but have a strong limit to how much they can do.

However, I don't think that's the only way to go. I don't even think that those subwoofers would be the highest sounding in resolution. But for the people with the really big rooms deadened as much as possible... They probably need some serious power to even hear it. There just.... there are other ways to go about it, too. Frankly you'd think by now these companies would be developing cardioid bass if their approach is to go this route. I can't imagine paying the price they have without cardioid controlled directivity. It's sorta like buying a $120k car that doesn't have a backup camera and is carberated so it requires you to use the choke.

 

[16hz lover]

I have to shake my head at the absurdity of it all, 6000 watts to drive a couple of woofers in a domestic environment! Anyone else see how ridiculous all this has become?

david

No, seeing how many watts it takes to drive a 4" voice coil, 4" of travel at 8hz, without clipping the amp, sounds about right, especially splitting it up for two woofers
It never ceases to amaze me at how many people think that subwoofers are only supposed to operate from 20-60 hz. The word subwoofer, means SUB sonic ( below 20hz), and most subs today especially the ones for consumer use fail miserably below 20hz, having to resort to cutting back the travel of the driver to prevent bottoming like all servo driven subs operate. The area they need to be most effective is where they cut the output back, now that's absurd, kind of defeats the purpose. Those of us who love pipe organ recordings need a sub to deliver 100db of sound at 16hz and in some recordings 8hz if there is a 64ft stop. If you walk into a Stereo shop and hand them a pipe organ recording that demands such frequency extension and SPL to reproduce the actual event ( which is the only purpose of a transducer system) and it fails, then it's simply a failed design. 60% of audiophiles only care about the "precious midrange and palpable presence ", thus being very happy with a pair a LS3/5a mini-monitors and a 3 watt tube amp. The other 40% are usually musicians who want realistic reproduction of what it's like to be in the band, not in the 30th row back. Standing inside an organ chamber in front of a 32ft pipe is an incredible experience and I've been fortunate to do it many times working for years in the pipe organ building business.
Many people have combination Home Theater and Stereo systems. If your subs cannot produce single digit frequencies effectively, then it is worthless as a HT sub.

 

[mtakeda]

No, seeing how many watts it takes to drive a 4" voice coil, 4" of travel at 8hz, without clipping the amp, sounds about right, especially splitting it up for two woofers
It never ceases to amaze me at how many people think that subwoofers are only supposed to operate from 20-60 hz. The word subwoofer, means SUB sonic ( below 20hz), and most subs today especially the ones for consumer use fail miserably below 20hz, having to resort to cutting back the travel of the driver to prevent bottoming like all servo driven subs operate. The area they need to be most effective is where they cut the output back, now that's absurd, kind of defeats the purpose. Those of us who love pipe organ recordings need a sub to deliver 100db of sound at 16hz and in some recordings 8hz if there is a 64ft stop. If you walk into a Stereo shop and hand them a pipe organ recording that demands such frequency extension and SPL to reproduce the actual event ( which is the only purpose of a transducer system) and it fails, then it's simply a failed design. 60% of audiophiles only care about the "precious midrange and palpable presence ", thus being very happy with a pair a LS3/5a mini-monitors and a 3 watt tube amp. The other 40% are usually musicians who want realistic reproduction of what it's like to be in the band, not in the 30th row back. Standing inside an organ chamber in front of a 32ft pipe is an incredible experience and I've been fortunate to do it many times working for years in the pipe organ building business.
Many people have combination Home Theater and Stereo systems. If your subs cannot produce single digit frequencies effectively, then it is worthless as a HT sub.

Can you name a few which meet your requirements.

 

[Folsom]

Organ lovers have to be on the absolute fringe, that actually want below 20hz. Most of the time you’re just getting noise from playback resonances on an LP you don’t actually need. CDs are not really intended to go below 20hz. Glad I am not into organs, stereo power would be so much more demanding...

 

[NorthStar]

Some digital material, on both music and films, go down to single digit Hertz.
...Synthesizer, organ.

Is this an analog subwoofer or a digital one or both?
Is it for mono, stereo or multichannel sound? ...All of them?

 

[ddk]

No, seeing how many watts it takes to drive a 4" voice coil, 4" of travel at 8hz, without clipping the amp, sounds about right, especially splitting it up for two woofers
It never ceases to amaze me at how many people think that subwoofers are only supposed to operate from 20-60 hz. The word subwoofer, means SUB sonic ( below 20hz), and most subs today especially the ones for consumer use fail miserably below 20hz, having to resort to cutting back the travel of the driver to prevent bottoming like all servo driven subs operate. The area they need to be most effective is where they cut the output back, now that's absurd, kind of defeats the purpose. Those of us who love pipe organ recordings need a sub to deliver 100db of sound at 16hz and in some recordings 8hz if there is a 64ft stop. If you walk into a Stereo shop and hand them a pipe organ recording that demands such frequency extension and SPL to reproduce the actual event ( which is the only purpose of a transducer system) and it fails, then it's simply a failed design. 60% of audiophiles only care about the "precious midrange and palpable presence ", thus being very happy with a pair a LS3/5a mini-monitors and a 3 watt tube amp. The other 40% are usually musicians who want realistic reproduction of what it's like to be in the band, not in the 30th row back. Standing inside an organ chamber in front of a 32ft pipe is an incredible experience and I've been fortunate to do it many times working for years in the pipe organ building business.
Many people have combination Home Theater and Stereo systems. If your subs cannot produce single digit frequencies effectively, then it is worthless as a HT sub.

The first challenge is finding a decent recording that goes down to 16hz or 8 hz and if you did your source player will be your next challenge. Yes a 32ft is a special experience and there's a reason for it, physics there's no way you're going to get even real 16hz from a few cubic feet at home no less 8hz.

How loud is the main speaker playing at if your sub is at 100 db? Or you're thinking of only boom boom BOOM? We have different reference points, none of the subwoofer drivers I use/used needed more than 30 watts most were happy with a lot less but then most of my speakers don't need more than few watts either.

david

 

[NorthStar]

Still no price announced yet, but it won't be cheap.

 

[Billygxx]

The first challenge is finding a decent recording that goes down to 16hz or 8 hz and if you did your source player will be your next challenge. Yes a 32ft is a special experience and there's a reason for it, physics there's no way you're going to get even real 16hz from a few cubic feet at home no less 8hz.

How loud is the main speaker playing at if your sub is at 100 db? Or you're thinking of only boom boom BOOM? We have different reference points, none of the subwoofer drivers I use/used needed more than 30 watts most were happy with a lot less but then most of my speakers don't need more than few watts either.

david

Six months ago I would have completely agreed with David but my visit to hear the Wilson Wamms provided an insight into the music that i did not think was possible. The subwoofers that operate with The Master Chronosonic System use a high pass on the order of 23hz and go down to 10hz. We listened to blues, jazz, voice and orchestral music during the demonstration. There were no pipe organs or 1812 cannons. The vast majority of the music we heard had absolutely no musically audible sound below 23hz-theoretically. The kind people at Wilson made the point that one could save more than 100k if the system is purchased without the dual subs. Via a single flip of the switch while listening they could disable the subs. During the factory tour we were able to hold the 12 inch triple drivers that constitute each sub. They were so heavy that 2 people stood at the ready in case I dropped the driver. The actual cone material is very light and the box is big(675lbs) so i don't think 6,000 watts are necessary to get down to 10hz. The satellites themselves are flat to 20hz. The Wilson folks are quick to mention that their previous best effort at ultralow frequency, the Thor isn't even in the same ballpark as this monster-musically that is. Long story long, no matter what music we were listening to, turning on the subs created a vast and surround like soundstage. There was no sense of hearing deeper bass but the most striking sensation was how utterly real the music sounded on some recordings. My eyes were closed before they played a Kodo drum set. I opened them immediately because i would have sworn they snuck the drummers in. So bizarrely startling that I almost fell out of my chair and it was a deep chair. My very first experience in many years of hearing audio systems that I legitimately could not distinguish the recording from the real thing. Normally its obvious just walking down the hall if real musicians are in the building. With the subs off this effect completely disappeared and the system became merely a competent reproducer of music. This super real effect was not always present but no matter what music we listened to it was massively augmented by these subsonic sound giants. Even blues guitar which I would think could not possibly have any frequency anywhere near 10hz just sounded more real. The Wamms aren't perfect. For example, I think my own horns sound more realistic on horns. Full scale orchestral music sounded like two speakers struggling to reproduce, well, an entire orchestra.
Since this experience, I have been on a mission to find a pair of subs that plumb the depth without the 6 figure price. It could simply be that Wilson's subs are unique but my search revealed something I had noticed years ago but not heard much since. The Thigpen Rotary Subwoofer. They claim robust output all the way down to 7hz with 110db output. They have slightly lower output at 1hz. I have not heard them but what caught my attention on their website was that they were hearing things in recordings that no one knew existed because there never has been a subsonic driver that went down to 1hz.
Getting back to the thread, I viscerally understand why so much expense and technology would go into a speaker that can go very deep-even though no music supposedly exists there. Using a 21 inch driver with an alloy cone is diametrically opposed to Wilsons approach utilizing a super light cone(I know alloys can be light but 21 inches?) and only 12inch drivers to allow the speed necessary for realism. To Ron's question about a showdown, I heard an REL stack recently. It did provide a lot of ambiance however it sounded muddy and sloppy in comparison to the Wilson. I hope someone in WBF has an opportunity to hear this sub and report back.

 

[LL21]

Great feedback on deep bass, what it does...and on the WAMMs as well. I have found listening to the end of a track of live jazz (AFTER the musicians have stopped playing), it is incredibly jarring when the track finally ends after a few seconds. The room collapses, and suddenly your ears instantly re-acclimate to the actual boundaries of the room again (ie, rustling paper gives you an immediate sense of the walls, boundaries, etc) The jazz club dimensions are gone, and somehow that is in my experience mainly the sub because this effect does not happen nearly as much if the subs are off the whole time.

 

[Tango]

Yike! Lucky me I don't listen to pipe organ.
The low low bass sure has its merit when it doesnt deteriorate the rest. Not my number one priority but something to work on.

Regards,
Tang

 

[DaveyF]

There is an issue with trying to playback extreme low bass in one's room. This issue seems to be have been forgotten! The issue is whether the walls and the surroundings will support the bass wave, without tremendous vibration and feedback. Something that I suspect most of our rooms would be susceptible to at frequencies below 20Hz. Nothing more infuriating, IME, than buzzing and other artifacts in a room that cannot support the bass that we are trying to playback. IMHO.