YG introduces the InVincible, 21" all-aluminum 6000W sub!

asiufy

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It's not about pipe organs, as Billy clearly laid out.
I also experienced the WAMMs (+ the Subsonics), and it is indeed quite a revelation.
I thought the high frequencies were what gave us the spatial/room ambiance information, but as it turns out, the low frequencies do carry much of that too, perhaps to an even greater extent.
One of the (many) remarkable things about the WAMM is how much information it could convey with just those two woofers. We've all heard XLF before, which actually have BIGGER woofers, but the WAMM was in an altogether different level.
But this is about the YG subs, which we'll hopefully have a chance to hear early next year!


cheers,
alex
 

LL21

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Dec 26, 2010
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DaveyF,

This article seems to suggest that having a room 30' - 40' in length enables the 56.5' 20hz to run down the length of the room and come back and still have 2.5' left before hitting the wall. What do you think?

https://www.acousticfields.com/wavelengths-in-our-rooms/

"Half wavelength theory states that if we have at least half of the full wavelength distance in our rooms, then we will not have any side effects from trying to encase our low frequency wave in a box or room. If we take a more realistic room dimension of 30? and use this distance and apply it to our 56.5? low frequency wave, we can illustrate how half wavelength theory works. "
 

DaveyF

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Jul 31, 2010
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Lloyd, what you suggest is IME only half the picture. Problem is that the walls and the general construction vary from room to room. If I am using a room with the standard drywall over wood framing, as is common in most of the US, that will be different from brick construction or steel etc., Add to that the various items in a room that can vibrate, like bookshelves, windows and numerous other items, and we can be looking at a vibrating nightmare. Even with room acoustic treatments and bass trapping, extreme low bass is potentially problematic in many of our rooms. I know this, having just dealt with exactly this kind of problem with placing my two REL’s.
Took a good deal of trial and effort to address the problems, and I’m not even talking Bass beneath 20hz!
 

LL21

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Dec 26, 2010
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Thanks, Davey. I will say, we have not had much vibration (solid brick and stone masonry) and the room is 40' x 18' x 11' so decent size to disperse pressure. As for ideal proportions, etc...i guess suffice to say, it works for us and we get a kick out of watching Mission Impossible as much as listening to Hans Zimmer soundtracks.

That said, I have always enjoyed non-perfect bass more than 'no bass' and fully admit that is a personal choice.
 

DaveyF

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Jul 31, 2010
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Lloyd, your saving grace is the solid brick and stone masonry construction. Unfortunately, many folks who will buy subs that can drop below 20hz don’t have that luxury. As such, I believe they will be in a battle against their room....one that is not that easy to tame.A speaker that can reproduce a 10-15hz note is going to push a lot of air..and is going to test the walls and the construction to the max...
Even in a solid brick and stone room, anything that isn’t solidly grounded is going to vibrate...and that is going to be audible, IME.
 

LL21

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Yes, 19th century construction. Interestingly, data-bass.com does measure in open space the Velodyne DD18+ at 10hz at 86db (at 2m distance) which was the first closed-box sub ever to do that in their records. https://data-bass.com/systems

Their open field test actually does seem to be truly open field...wonder what the in-room results are.
https://data-bass.com/know-how

"Then on to the outdoor ground plane testing. The systems are placed on the ground out in a large field with the nearest large objects being 60ft or more away and the microphone is placed pointing at the subwoofer at a distance of 2 meters from the nearest enclosure edge or face. In this manner the effects of any boundarys or room acoustics can be eliminated leaving the response of the speaker minus the influence of any strong reflections."
 

GaryProtein

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Jul 25, 2012
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There is an issue with trying to playback extreme low bass in one's room. This issue seems to be have been forgotten! The issue is whether the walls and the surroundings will support the bass wave, without tremendous vibration and feedback. Something that I suspect most of our rooms would be susceptible to at frequencies below 20Hz. Nothing more infuriating, IME, than buzzing and other artifacts in a room that cannot support the bass that we are trying to playback. IMHO.

All this is true especially on prolonged organ bass notes. My room is 34 feet long and system has been measured flat to below 10Hz and there isn't even a downward slope at 10 Hz. Whenever I think I found everything that vibrates, the slighjtest things that are moved in the room (it could be as simple as a vase holding flowers) I find as a new source of something that vibrates.
 

16hz lover

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Aug 2, 2013
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Organ lovers have to be on the absolute fringe, that actually want below 20hz. Most of the time you’re just getting noise from playback resonances on an LP you don’t actually need. CDs are not really intended to go below 20hz. ..

There are Telarc CD's with single digit frequencies out there. And pipe organ cd's routinely have 16hz notes from 32 ft pipes. Why would a cd stop at 20hz?
 

16hz lover

Well-Known Member
Aug 2, 2013
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The first challenge is finding a decent recording that goes down to 16hz or 8 hz and if you did your source player will be your next challenge. Yes a 32ft is a special experience and there's a reason for it, physics there's no way you're going to get even real 16hz from a few cubic feet at home no less 8hz.

How loud is the main speaker playing at if your sub is at 100 db:)? Or you're thinking of only boom boom BOOM? We have different reference points, none of the subwoofer drivers I use/used needed more than 30 watts most were happy with a lot less but then most of my speakers don't need more than few watts either.

david
Lots of discs go below 20hz. Oppo players start rolling off at 5hz, some Marantz players go down to 3hz.
You are correct, most small subs in a couple of cubic feet of cabinet with 12-14mm of excursion that are sold as consumer grade don't have a snowballs chance in hell of going below 20hz, which is where real subwoofers operate.
If your main speakers are not capable of recreating actual concert levels, then they are for sure not going to keep up with an audiophile subwoofer that can also deliver those levels. The very last thing you want is a boomy subwoofer which is what the majority of consumer subs deliver because they use small woofers with small magnets, giving poor cone control. The PA style of subwoofer drivers are low xmax and are frequency limited even though there are efficient.
 

Ron Resnick

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Six months ago I would have completely agreed with David but my visit to hear the Wilson Wamms provided an insight into the music that i did not think was possible. The subwoofers that operate with The Master Chronosonic System use a high pass on the order of 23hz and go down to 10hz. We listened to blues, jazz, voice and orchestral music during the demonstration. There were no pipe organs or 1812 cannons. The vast majority of the music we heard had absolutely no musically audible sound below 23hz-theoretically. The kind people at Wilson made the point that one could save more than 100k if the system is purchased without the dual subs. Via a single flip of the switch while listening they could disable the subs. During the factory tour we were able to hold the 12 inch triple drivers that constitute each sub. They were so heavy that 2 people stood at the ready in case I dropped the driver. The actual cone material is very light and the box is big(675lbs) so i don't think 6,000 watts are necessary to get down to 10hz. The satellites themselves are flat to 20hz. The Wilson folks are quick to mention that their previous best effort at ultralow frequency, the Thor isn't even in the same ballpark as this monster-musically that is. Long story long, no matter what music we were listening to, turning on the subs created a vast and surround like soundstage. There was no sense of hearing deeper bass but the most striking sensation was how utterly real the music sounded on some recordings. My eyes were closed before they played a Kodo drum set. I opened them immediately because i would have sworn they snuck the drummers in. So bizarrely startling that I almost fell out of my chair and it was a deep chair. My very first experience in many years of hearing audio systems that I legitimately could not distinguish the recording from the real thing. Normally its obvious just walking down the hall if real musicians are in the building. With the subs off this effect completely disappeared and the system became merely a competent reproducer of music. This super real effect was not always present but no matter what music we listened to it was massively augmented by these subsonic sound giants. Even blues guitar which I would think could not possibly have any frequency anywhere near 10hz just sounded more real. The Wamms aren't perfect. For example, I think my own horns sound more realistic on horns. Full scale orchestral music sounded like two speakers struggling to reproduce, well, an entire orchestra.
Since this experience, I have been on a mission to find a pair of subs that plumb the depth without the 6 figure price. It could simply be that Wilson's subs are unique but my search revealed something I had noticed years ago but not heard much since. The Thigpen Rotary Subwoofer. They claim robust output all the way down to 7hz with 110db output. They have slightly lower output at 1hz. I have not heard them but what caught my attention on their website was that they were hearing things in recordings that no one knew existed because there never has been a subsonic driver that went down to 1hz.
Getting back to the thread, I viscerally understand why so much expense and technology would go into a speaker that can go very deep-even though no music supposedly exists there. Using a 21 inch driver with an alloy cone is diametrically opposed to Wilsons approach utilizing a super light cone(I know alloys can be light but 21 inches?) and only 12inch drivers to allow the speed necessary for realism. To Ron's question about a showdown, I heard an REL stack recently. It did provide a lot of ambiance however it sounded muddy and sloppy in comparison to the Wilson. I hope someone in WBF has an opportunity to hear this sub and report back.

Thank you, Billy, for that very interesting report! I would like a pair of those Master Chronosonic subwoofers but they are very expensive boxes to start with — plus two Watch Controllers plus two Parasound Halos — and one is up to a big number.

I was hoping that six REL No. 25s might do the trick. (Plus the vertical rubber strings kind of match the Gryphon rubber strings.) Was the system in which you heard the stacked RELs a top quality system?
 

NorthStar

Member
Feb 8, 2011
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All this is true especially on prolonged organ bass notes. My room is 34 feet long and system has been measured flat to below 10Hz and there isn't even a downward slope at 10 Hz. Whenever I think I found everything that vibrates, the slighjtest things that are moved in the room (it could be as simple as a vase holding flowers) I find as a new source of something that vibrates.

 

ddk

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2013
6,261
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Utah
Six months ago I would have completely agreed with David but my visit to hear the Wilson Wamms provided an insight into the music that i did not think was possible. The subwoofers that operate with The Master Chronosonic System use a high pass on the order of 23hz and go down to 10hz. We listened to blues, jazz, voice and orchestral music during the demonstration. There were no pipe organs or 1812 cannons. The vast majority of the music we heard had absolutely no musically audible sound below 23hz-theoretically. The kind people at Wilson made the point that one could save more than 100k if the system is purchased without the dual subs. Via a single flip of the switch while listening they could disable the subs. During the factory tour we were able to hold the 12 inch triple drivers that constitute each sub. They were so heavy that 2 people stood at the ready in case I dropped the driver. The actual cone material is very light and the box is big(675lbs) so i don't think 6,000 watts are necessary to get down to 10hz. The satellites themselves are flat to 20hz. The Wilson folks are quick to mention that their previous best effort at ultralow frequency, the Thor isn't even in the same ballpark as this monster-musically that is. Long story long, no matter what music we were listening to, turning on the subs created a vast and surround like soundstage. There was no sense of hearing deeper bass but the most striking sensation was how utterly real the music sounded on some recordings. My eyes were closed before they played a Kodo drum set. I opened them immediately because i would have sworn they snuck the drummers in. So bizarrely startling that I almost fell out of my chair and it was a deep chair. My very first experience in many years of hearing audio systems that I legitimately could not distinguish the recording from the real thing. Normally its obvious just walking down the hall if real musicians are in the building. With the subs off this effect completely disappeared and the system became merely a competent reproducer of music. This super real effect was not always present but no matter what music we listened to it was massively augmented by these subsonic sound giants. Even blues guitar which I would think could not possibly have any frequency anywhere near 10hz just sounded more real. The Wamms aren't perfect. For example, I think my own horns sound more realistic on horns. Full scale orchestral music sounded like two speakers struggling to reproduce, well, an entire orchestra.
Since this experience, I have been on a mission to find a pair of subs that plumb the depth without the 6 figure price. It could simply be that Wilson's subs are unique but my search revealed something I had noticed years ago but not heard much since. The Thigpen Rotary Subwoofer. They claim robust output all the way down to 7hz with 110db output. They have slightly lower output at 1hz. I have not heard them but what caught my attention on their website was that they were hearing things in recordings that no one knew existed because there never has been a subsonic driver that went down to 1hz.
Getting back to the thread, I viscerally understand why so much expense and technology would go into a speaker that can go very deep-even though no music supposedly exists there. Using a 21 inch driver with an alloy cone is diametrically opposed to Wilsons approach utilizing a super light cone(I know alloys can be light but 21 inches?) and only 12inch drivers to allow the speed necessary for realism. To Ron's question about a showdown, I heard an REL stack recently. It did provide a lot of ambiance however it sounded muddy and sloppy in comparison to the Wilson. I hope someone in WBF has an opportunity to hear this sub and report back.
Wilson subs are pretty much old school passive and in a class of their own Billy and have nothing in common with class D active ones with digital crossovers which are the topic here. You’re right that subs are there to augment the musical experience, but without making their presence known! Something that I find active digital subs incapable of accomplishing in most systems I’ve hard and/or worked on.

david
 

Folsom

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Wilson subs are pretty much old school passive and in a class of their own Billy and have nothing in common with class D active ones with digital crossovers which are the topic here. You’re right that subs are there to augment the musical experience, but without making their presence known! Something that I find active digital subs incapable of accomplishing in most systems I’ve hard and/or worked on.

david

It’s true, the dynamics are often there with these big ass subs n amps, but true resolution & integration does not always follow. It is a problem with setup as much as anything else, often. But then again a more natural sounding speaker than the companies that build these tend to produce... hard to pair. I would say any ported speaker is easier to pair because the bass resolution isn’t likely to be quiet as high as some other speakers.

I prefer resolution to dynamics for bass. But it probably is no secret I do enjoy some low bass for purely augmenting the experience, that isn’t really part of the music per se. (swarm style) But by no means do I think pure SPL is what makes it magic.

A friend with a trusted ear is a big fan of Funk subs, I would love to hear them. They might be doing it right, and really have great resolution. Maybe that is my way of saying that I simply do not attune to the lower powered light paper cone subwoofer setup you (ddk) like. I have heard hypex driven subs sound pretty darn nice sealed, but I was the only person to get them to sound “one with the speakers”. Frankly this is very, very, difficult territory to translate online. I think speakers that sound like the tweeter and midwoofer are one, basically don’t exist - at least with any remotely accurate phase (THD). Maybe there are some horns I haven’t heard that would qualify.
 

christoph

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Dec 11, 2015
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Thank you, Billy, for that very interesting report! I would like a pair of those Master Chronosonic subwoofers but they are very expensive boxes to start with — plus two Watch Controllers plus two Parasound Halos — and one is up to a big number.

I was hoping that six REL No. 25s might do the trick. (Plus the vertical rubber strings kind of match the Gryphon rubber strings.) Was the system in which you heard the stacked RELs a top quality system?
Hi Ron

How low do your Gryphon woofer columns reach? Do you still need additional subwoofers?
 

sujay

Member Sponsor
May 5, 2012
516
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Six months ago I would have completely agreed with David but my visit to hear the Wilson Wamms provided an insight into the music that i did not think was possible. The subwoofers that operate with The Master Chronosonic System use a high pass on the order of 23hz and go down to 10hz. We listened to blues, jazz, voice and orchestral music during the demonstration. There were no pipe organs or 1812 cannons. The vast majority of the music we heard had absolutely no musically audible sound below 23hz-theoretically. The kind people at Wilson made the point that one could save more than 100k if the system is purchased without the dual subs. Via a single flip of the switch while listening they could disable the subs. During the factory tour we were able to hold the 12 inch triple drivers that constitute each sub. They were so heavy that 2 people stood at the ready in case I dropped the driver. The actual cone material is very light and the box is big(675lbs) so i don't think 6,000 watts are necessary to get down to 10hz. The satellites themselves are flat to 20hz. The Wilson folks are quick to mention that their previous best effort at ultralow frequency, the Thor isn't even in the same ballpark as this monster-musically that is. Long story long, no matter what music we were listening to, turning on the subs created a vast and surround like soundstage. There was no sense of hearing deeper bass but the most striking sensation was how utterly real the music sounded on some recordings. My eyes were closed before they played a Kodo drum set. I opened them immediately because i would have sworn they snuck the drummers in. So bizarrely startling that I almost fell out of my chair and it was a deep chair. My very first experience in many years of hearing audio systems that I legitimately could not distinguish the recording from the real thing. Normally its obvious just walking down the hall if real musicians are in the building. With the subs off this effect completely disappeared and the system became merely a competent reproducer of music. This super real effect was not always present but no matter what music we listened to it was massively augmented by these subsonic sound giants. Even blues guitar which I would think could not possibly have any frequency anywhere near 10hz just sounded more real. The Wamms aren't perfect. For example, I think my own horns sound more realistic on horns. Full scale orchestral music sounded like two speakers struggling to reproduce, well, an entire orchestra.
Since this experience, I have been on a mission to find a pair of subs that plumb the depth without the 6 figure price. It could simply be that Wilson's subs are unique but my search revealed something I had noticed years ago but not heard much since. The Thigpen Rotary Subwoofer. They claim robust output all the way down to 7hz with 110db output. They have slightly lower output at 1hz. I have not heard them but what caught my attention on their website was that they were hearing things in recordings that no one knew existed because there never has been a subsonic driver that went down to 1hz.
Getting back to the thread, I viscerally understand why so much expense and technology would go into a speaker that can go very deep-even though no music supposedly exists there. Using a 21 inch driver with an alloy cone is diametrically opposed to Wilsons approach utilizing a super light cone(I know alloys can be light but 21 inches?) and only 12inch drivers to allow the speed necessary for realism. To Ron's question about a showdown, I heard an REL stack recently. It did provide a lot of ambiance however it sounded muddy and sloppy in comparison to the Wilson. I hope someone in WBF has an opportunity to hear this sub and report back.
Six months ago I would have completely agreed with David but my visit to hear the Wilson Wamms provided an insight into the music that i did not think was possible. The subwoofers that operate with The Master Chronosonic System use a high pass on the order of 23hz and go down to 10hz. We listened to blues, jazz, voice and orchestral music during the demonstration. There were no pipe organs or 1812 cannons. The vast majority of the music we heard had absolutely no musically audible sound below 23hz-theoretically. The kind people at Wilson made the point that one could save more than 100k if the system is purchased without the dual subs. Via a single flip of the switch while listening they could disable the subs. During the factory tour we were able to hold the 12 inch triple drivers that constitute each sub. They were so heavy that 2 people stood at the ready in case I dropped the driver. The actual cone material is very light and the box is big(675lbs) so i don't think 6,000 watts are necessary to get down to 10hz. The satellites themselves are flat to 20hz. The Wilson folks are quick to mention that their previous best effort at ultralow frequency, the Thor isn't even in the same ballpark as this monster-musically that is. Long story long, no matter what music we were listening to, turning on the subs created a vast and surround like soundstage. There was no sense of hearing deeper bass but the most striking sensation was how utterly real the music sounded on some recordings. My eyes were closed before they played a Kodo drum set. I opened them immediately because i would have sworn they snuck the drummers in. So bizarrely startling that I almost fell out of my chair and it was a deep chair. My very first experience in many years of hearing audio systems that I legitimately could not distinguish the recording from the real thing. Normally its obvious just walking down the hall if real musicians are in the building. With the subs off this effect completely disappeared and the system became merely a competent reproducer of music. This super real effect was not always present but no matter what music we listened to it was massively augmented by these subsonic sound giants. Even blues guitar which I would think could not possibly have any frequency anywhere near 10hz just sounded more real. The Wamms aren't perfect. For example, I think my own horns sound more realistic on horns. Full scale orchestral music sounded like two speakers struggling to reproduce, well, an entire orchestra.
Since this experience, I have been on a mission to find a pair of subs that plumb the depth without the 6 figure price. It could simply be that Wilson's subs are unique but my search revealed something I had noticed years ago but not heard much since. The Thigpen Rotary Subwoofer. They claim robust output all the way down to 7hz with 110db output. They have slightly lower output at 1hz. I have not heard them but what caught my attention on their website was that they were hearing things in recordings that no one knew existed because there never has been a subsonic driver that went down to 1hz.
Getting back to the thread, I viscerally understand why so much expense and technology would go into a speaker that can go very deep-even though no music supposedly exists there. Using a 21 inch driver with an alloy cone is diametrically opposed to Wilsons approach utilizing a super light cone(I know alloys can be light but 21 inches?) and only 12inch drivers to allow the speed necessary for realism. To Ron's question about a showdown, I heard an REL stack recently. It did provide a lot of ambiance however it sounded muddy and sloppy in comparison to the Wilson. I hope someone in WBF has an opportunity to hear this sub and report back.
Absolutely agree with you. I had no idea what a pair of subs could do till I got myself a pair of REL G1s with the high level speakon connections, which while rather unconventional, is highly effective imo. The difference they make to the overall presentation and ambience is startling and it has nothing to do with more bass. In fact, the only time you detect their presence is when you switch them on after you have listened to music without them in the mix for sometime. The effect, I am told however, does differ depending on the make of the main speakers. Also, they need time to dial in. One of the reason the stack of 6 sounded muddy could be owing to sub-optimal integration. And of course, it is that much more complicated, I guess, with 6 in the mix!

I did the before after drill with one of my audiophile friends at home and he started grinning.....no words needed to be exchanged!

Cheers

Sujay
 

sujay

Member Sponsor
May 5, 2012
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I was hoping that six REL No. 25s might do the trick. (Plus the vertical rubber strings kind of match the Gryphon rubber strings.) Was the system in which you heard the stacked RELs a top quality system?
Hi Ron, I would suggest don’t give up on the idea of the six packs yet. I am told they make a huge difference in the room with the right size, wall construction, etc. but most importantly, you need someone to set them up and dial them in for you. I believe REL sends their tech down to install, especially for a six pack. They also let you know whether a six pack would actually work or not in the first place with your speakers and from what I know are prepared to take back the subs if you don’t find them making a difference!

Cheers
Sujay
 

bonzo75

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Feb 26, 2014
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Rel 6 packs... Not required..

zero-distortion.org/allnic-aesthetix-io-dartzeel-kodo-beat-vyger-indian-signature-kiseki/
 

microstrip

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May 30, 2010
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IMHO we can need an external crossover to match "foreign" subs to speakers already having good bass extension - I needed the JL Audio CR1 crossover to match the F113 mk2's to the XLF.
 

ddk

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2013
6,261
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995
Utah
Maybe that is my way of saying that I simply do not attune to the lower powered light paper cone subwoofer setup you (ddk) like. I have heard hypex driven subs sound pretty darn nice sealed, but I was the only person to get them to sound “one with the speakers”. Frankly this is very, very, difficult territory to translate online. I think speakers that sound like the tweeter and midwoofer are one, basically don’t exist - at least with any remotely accurate phase (THD). Maybe there are some horns I haven’t heard that would qualify.

Try matching an ultra fast SET driven bass horn with one of these slow mechanical sounding hypex driven subs and then we'll talk. Very easy to hear how slow and muddy active digital subs are in the right context. Of course there's also my own preferences and values; I find the bass of a properly designed SET amp as the best most natural low frequency sound followed by good push/pull tube amps. Even the best sounding class A SS amp is a very distant 2nd specially in the bass region and always find digital amps and crossovers very synthetic and homogenized.

david
 
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NorthStar

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Dual 21", good with movies. ...For music; jazz, blues, rock, new age, chamber, pop, soft listening, vocals, intimate, private, smooth, ... I'd go with multiple 8", ...10" max.

My own loonie coin. But, who knows what it can do in large rooms with full orchestral, operas, symphonies, organ chorales, heavy metal, electronica, disco, rap, all that single digit Hertz.
 

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