KeithR's "Dream Speaker" Search

[Folsom]

So, it's very possible to have exceptionally low distortion out of a box speaker but if you want the same impact, "jump factor", and SPL capabilities vs a horn you simply need more drivers.

Well... the velocity is a little lower with direct radiating cones. Generally the horns for bass and such are too small to be a true horn, but create a tight enough space to increase velocity a little. So they can sound different.

I think speakers play just fine and jump factor except that not all designs are good at it. I generally think ported sounds loud, but not necessarily "jump". I'm not sure "jump" is an actual sound description I like, btw, as it might seem a bit artificial.

 

[microstrip]

Hey Micro,

I have also seen a paper recently that claims the reverse but if we were to do this correctly and undertake a systematic review and meta-analysis, I am pretty sure that the pooled effect size from the meta-analysis would demonstrate favour to horns at this juncture. But I am not volunteering to do this meta-analysis lol (even though an area of expertise of mine).

I agree that it is dangerous to pool genres though but in this instance we are needing to do so.

I also agree that it is highly likely that we don’t collectively prefer lower distortion systems. I am nearly certain that if we conducted a meta-regression, we would find very weak association at best.

In terms of the horn community - yeah I think they tend to be more pragmatic music lovers first and foremost - definitely not normally “measurebators”

I am pretty sure that a systematic review review and a meta-analysys would not bring light to this question - the issues on problem definition , collecting and weighting data could easily change the conclusion.

Curiously I am much more favorable than you seem to be on the use of measurements to explain what we listen - my understanding is that measurements are needed and can help to explain a lot, but not everything and should be used with judgment, accepting its scope and limitations.

The pragmatic "music lover first and foremost" approach is romantic and nice sounding but is is essentially an individual approach, strongly biased by troop pressure. Not reliable to any meta type of thing, IMHO.

IMHO in order to be able to apply statistics to audio high-end we must limit the conditions of data taking so much that in the end it distorts the conclusions.

 

[microstrip]

My ARC is on a Torus.a tube went bye bye taking out a bias resistor. Unit went back as now power meter not working correctly.

The Torus does not stabilize mains - it is mainly a filtered transformer. The bias resistor break is probably due to a faulty tube - bias resistors in normal conditions have minimal current. Bad luck. The power meter is essentially cosmetic - IMHO it should not count as a break!

 

[microstrip]

I really think it's unfair to bring in Mike here. If someone wants to use Mike to represent a cone system, it is like me buying a schopper and a few classic records and pretending I will have an analog sound like the General's. At least the schopper 124 is musical. Mike is an exception and we are talking general cone systems vs general high efficiency systems or apogees, more of which is easily adaptable to the average Joe without trying to be a General Mike's (...)

I can not understand why Mike should be considered an exception. Your analogy is completely misleading and not related to what is being debated. Mike system is a cone system and should be seen as example of it, as well as Steve, Jack or Christian systems.

Should we think that Mike MSB, Dartzeel and Studer's are also exceptions? That the remaining MM7's playing around sound poor?

 

[bonzo75]

I can not understand why Mike should be considered an exception. Your analogy is completely misleading and not related to what is being debated. Mike system is a cone system and should be seen as example of it, as well as Steve, Jack or Christian systems.

Should we think that Mike MSB, Dartzeel and Studer's are also exceptions? That the remaining MM7's playing around sound poor?

Very easy - unless each post you want to mention each specific example of what you are referring to, when we "cones", "horns", planars, etc we are generalizing. Mike, Tang, Ddk, General, you, are specific examples, not generalisations. As far as I am concerned, there is one case of a good cone system, and even for those who think there can be more, it is generally accepted here that Mike's is so system specific that learnings cannot be easily ported to another system. It would be the same with Henk;s Grands, or Pietro's Yamamura, these are very specific examples. If the Yamamura was the only horn I liked, or the Grands was the only planar I liked, I would not be chasing horns or planars or attributing anything to them based on a sample size of 1

 

[Folsom]

The Torus does not stabilize mains - it is mainly a filtered transformer. The bias resistor break is probably due to a faulty tube - bias resistors in normal conditions have minimal current. Bad luck. The power meter is essentially cosmetic - IMHO it should not count as a break!

They keep a more constant voltage.

 

[DaveyF]

Don't waste your time arguing with him Bill. He hates horns, all types, but is totally enamored with a speaker he's never heard.

I'm not enamored of a speaker I have never heard and I do not hate all horns, however, unlike you, I am open to the possibility that this speaker design is superior to others...including all horns.
It is clear now that you have limited experience with listening to various speaker types and music in general. Please stop putting words into my mouth.

 

[bonzo75]

My current favorite speakers are modded Tannoys introduced to me by Montesquieu. Never liked the stock new ones. But the modded ones are best next to the big horns that I like. They are better for than all planars that I like except for the biggest, like FR or Grands. Their mids are dense and great like pure ribbons, the stage is huge, great full body, the dual concentric drivers sound coherent like full range drivers, and they can have thundering, deep bass playing organ and electronica with a 50w KR, though 20w amps can be sufficient for baroque and leider. However to do this the vintage drivers have to be carefully chosen and matched to modern cabinets with damping, and their negatives are crossovers so they need to be modded. Best is they are real life. Low priced, fit into living rooms, go back to wall, and superbly musical.

 

[microstrip]

My current favorite speakers are modded Tannoys introduced to me by Montesquieu. Never liked the stock new ones. But the modded ones are best next to the big horns that I like. They are better for than all planars that I like except for the biggest, like FR or Grands. Their mids are dense and great like pure ribbons, the stage is huge, great full body, the dual concentric drivers sound coherent like full range drivers, and they can have thundering, deep bass playing organ and electronica with a 50w KR, though 20w amps can be sufficient for baroque and leider. However to do this the vintage drivers have to be carefully chosen and matched to modern cabinets with damping, and their negatives are crossovers so they need to be modded. Best is they are real life. Low priced, fit into living rooms, go back to wall, and superbly musical.

What drivers are you exactly addressing?

 

[bonzo75]

What drivers are you exactly addressing?

That's what I need to research more, there are hpd, gold, red, silver, black, all in 12 and 15 inch (There are 10 too), and different cabinets.

I have started and will soon get to hear varieties of hpd and gold implementations. I know one person I will have to travel to listen to silver, and don't know anyone with blacks (general owns the drivers though not finished tannoys). The silvers and blacks are expensive with blacks going for almost 15k usd for the pair of drivers.

Also I want to give modern ones more chance, to see if anyone has matched a good system.

 

[DaveC]

Well... the velocity is a little lower with direct radiating cones. Generally the horns for bass and such are too small to be a true horn, but create a tight enough space to increase velocity a little. So they can sound different.

I think speakers play just fine and jump factor except that not all designs are good at it. I generally think ported sounds loud, but not necessarily "jump". I'm not sure "jump" is an actual sound description I like, btw, as it might seem a bit artificial.

Yeah, that velocity is interesting and maybe more artificial vs a ported cabinet, IDK... it kinda depends on what it's reproducing.

You can get that effect with a SLOB as well... Nelson Pass' Slot-Loaded Open Baffle, which Voxativ uses.

For most, the size and expense of a bass horn doesn't make sense outside a 4+ way cost no object horn system in a large space. I'm not totally convinced on the "scoop" or partial bass horn that AG, BD and others use, the mouth is only big enough to support horn loading down to maybe 120 Hz and probably higher.

 

[morricab]

Speaker criteria:

I don't like bright sound or anything with "hi-fi fireworks" that unnaturally presents detail as a red herring. Metal tweeters and ceramic drivers have usually bothered me in prior speaker hunts. I require excellent dynamics and hence have always had an interest in horns - but concerned their negatives may outweigh this area. I don't crave "ultimate transparency" or detail. Basically I'm looking for a big soundstage with excellent dynamics and good tone. I also need adequate bass as I listen to electronica/trip hop/down tempo for a third of my listening. The other two thirds of my listening includes rock/Americana and classical - I don't really listen to jazz at all. Tone, immediacy, and presence are somewhat related and one thing Devore does really well. One last thing, as a former Zu owner - coherency is more apparent to me than others. It bothers me when I can hear different instruments out of different drivers or can point to the bass, etc.

First of all what is ""trip hop"? I assume that is a typo.

I am going to go out on a limb here. My last exposure to a wide variety of speakers is at the 2018 CAF. I am going to describe the speaker before I name it. Despite what members may have assumed, I was not critical of the speaker. I was underwhelmed by the exhibit. I was especially confused because it appeared no effort or expense was spared. My only serious complaint was imaging. The room was so large don't think any speaker could cast a realistic image.
This may be the first and only time I say a speaker may have benefited from a smaller room.

A dream speaker should be inter alia:
Exotic
Big
Expensive(100k+)
Able to handle large and small ensembles(orchestra and solo}
Be capable of wide range dynamics and low level resolution
Transparency
Frequency extension
Do all the above with ease and lack of strain.
If your attention is called to the bass, it is probably wrong!
Imaging should be three dimensional but not etch-a -sketch
Remember this is a dream system.Nor it is apology for earlier comments. It is not the only choice. This comes combined with VAC elctronics. Your choice of source should be vinyl.

Von Schwiekert Ultra 11.View attachment 48291

Heard this setup in Munich and to me it sounded really wrong...especially the imaging.

 

[morricab]

For most home, Lansche 4.2 speaker could be dream speaker with pristine high, excellent soundstage, good extension to bottom and high efficiency for SET amplifier.

https://www.lansche-audio.com/products/s-series/no-4-2/

I had been happily using Lansche 4.1 speaker since 2007.

I think I would prefer your older, higher sensitivity 4.1s.

 

[Al M.]

Heard this setup in Munich and to me it sounded really wrong...especially the imaging.

Mediocre or even bad sound at shows doesn't count. Too many variables involved.

 

[jeff1225]

I'm not enamored of a speaker I have never heard and I do not hate all horns, however, unlike you, I am open to the possibility that this speaker design is superior to others...including all horns.
It is clear now that you have limited experience with listening to various speaker types and music in general. Please stop putting words into my mouth.

1. You hate horns. 2. You pimp speakers you haven't heard on multiple threads. You even recommended the lowest model of your favorite unheard speakers (which no one has heard) on this very thread.

These are facts. I'm just trying to help a fellow music lover by warning him not to fall into a trap.

 

[Ron Resnick]

They keep a more constant voltage.

Yes, Torus makes a voltage regulated series of both the isolation transformer only devices and isolation transformer/balanced power combination devices.

 

[Folsom]

Yes, Torus makes a voltage regulated series of both the isolation transformer only devices and isolation transformer/balanced power combination devices.

They might call it that, but it’s more like stepped control. It moves in increments, and doesn’t burn off the top like a regulator does inside a preamp or something. It’s really just to make sure it doesn’t dip, it can’t actually keep a constant 120v, it may be 121, 123, or such at any given time. I think it’s a pretty neat feature. It would be nice if they could do it in reverse, too, because some vintage tube amps can’t take anything past 115v, and some people have 125v.


Bonzo, are there really good details on that Tannoy somewhere?

 

[Ron Resnick]

Heard this setup in Munich and to me it sounded really wrong...especially the imaging.

This entire VSA/VAC/Masterbuilt system has been on a traveling world tour. In Munich, the issue, if any, for this system was the room.

The exact same system was demoed in Chicago and Los Angeles, among other cities, to rave reviews.

 

[sujay]

Then with a box you have more or less ideal implementations and drivers. I settled on a ported box which reduces excursion vs sealed combined with a woofer with a stiff cone and massive motor. The measured distortion is incredibly low and for most folks would sound a bit odd at first because very few have heard such low distortion bass reproduction. So, it's very possible to have exceptionally low distortion out of a box speaker but if you want the same impact, "jump factor", and SPL capabilities vs a horn you simply need more drivers.

I quite agree with this statement. Yes I am biased because I have the Rockport Avior. But fwiw,they integrate really well even 3-4 feet away, are very, very coherent imo, with no apparent driver discontinuity. I drive them with burm 911 monos to very high SPL levels with very low distortion. I have always liked horns for their incredible physicality which the Avior can’t quite match at times, but for everything else, I find my speakers more than competent. I recently heard the YG 2.2 driven by the VA 103 and while the combination sounded really good, it still didn’t beat what I hear at home! The next step is to get the YG home for a demo and see what happens.

 

[thomask]

I think I would prefer your older, higher sensitivity 4.1s.

I thinks sensitivity of Lansche 4.1 got exaggerated.

Real sensitivity is around 96db/w same as newer model.

But I can drive it to enough volume in my listening room with 8W Silbatone amp.