Audiophiles mostly aren’t music fans

[morricab]

That's probably exactly who the OP is talking about. In that case he is correct... The guy is a gear head.

And that is OK, IMO. Personally, I am both a gear head AND a music lover...in no particular order...more like it goes in waves. Being a scientist, I am naturally inclined to like the technical side of audio...I am naturally attracted to understanding the how's and why's of things. However, I am drawn to the particular hobby because I always loved listening to music as it relaxes me and also provides mental lubricant for my thought processes (state dependent learning? Could be...). However, I don't think it is good when these kinds of things become obsessions...obsessions are not healthy...

 

[morricab]

Is Mike's room the result of luck, or is it the result of hard work and effort? One could also ask if his ability to afford such a room is a result of luck or hard work and effort.

Maybe this will help?

 

[morricab]

Well, my room hosts Soundlab's A1Px and Wilson XLFs and audio friends who listen to both have remarked the astonishing similitude in blending along the audio spectrum of both speakers - we also can't hear the XLF drivers as they say. As far as I know Steve does not hear the drives in his X2 and the Alexia or the Aida did not suffer from this problem in my room. I remember I complained about it in the original Magico Q7, the Q7 mk2 completely solved it.

I have found that I usually can hear the drivers in non-burned in speakers taken form the box - blending is usually the main improvement after a couple of hundreds of hours of operation. It is the more frequent sin of shows or shop demos - usually they do not have the time to burn-in equipment, the units being demoed almost smell fresh paint!
But I have not experience enough with the Sasha DAW to comment on this aspect.

IMHO a poor or inadequate source or amplification "exposes" the drivers of a speaker - the "defects" become localized in the unit zone.

Don't know about the XLF but at a Alexia 2 demo a colleague of mine and I could hear clearly on familiar music that Wilson has wired the midrange inverted from the other drivers...It was pretty obvious and sounded strange to us because transients were blunted. At that time I wasn't entirely sure about this until I read the Stereophile review much later that confirmed what we heard and discussed at the time of the demo. Perhaps the speakers were too new but perhaps not.

What I can say for certain in my own experiments with phase is that I can hear clearly the differences when my speakers are hooked up in normal or inverted phase...the whole presentation changes. If one driver is inverted (usually to make blending work at the crossover of 2nd order butterworth type filters) there is definitely something potentially audible as this driver will move inward when the others move out.

I have also experimented recently with my digital xover DIY horn setup where I am using a 2nd order LR filter. In this case both drivers should be hooked up in the same phase but I experimented with inversion of the horn driver (it is only a button click) and then equalizing the response to be the same. It still sounds quite different and having both in normal phase always sounded better blended and more natural...

 

[morricab]

Vivids shape and “not boxy” sound is a hypothesis. That can’t be proven unless you put the same parts in a “box”.

Magicos are like just about any speaker, with certain amps the drivers sound seperate. It’s hard to know what that sound is unless you also hear without. It’s not like you hear two sources, it’s more like you hear sound that isn’t congruent across the spectrum so the highs or lows may distract from one another depending on the music.

Good integration/setup/gear-selection makes you stop hearing the stereo, and start hearing the music.

Interesting point about the amps making the drivers sound separate. i have heard this effect as well. I once took a KR Audio VA350i over to a guy to demo on his Sonics Allegra speakers (I think this was the model...it was modular and had a long ribbon tweeter). First we listened with his Gamut integrated amp and I was struck by how disconnected all the drivers sounded...it was easy to pinpoint each frequency range by the driver producing it. Then we put on the KR and suddenly it was a pretty well integrated speaker with pretty much one voice (it was not the equal of a good electrostat to be sure). Interesting effect and must somehow be related to the distortions produced by that equipment.

 

[microstrip]

Actually it is very easy to hear disparate drivers in every Alexandria set up, X2 or XLF regardless of the room and electronics. And none of these are show demos, only one is a dealer demo and that too long time settled at the dealer. Haven't heard the Alexx but otherwise the most integrated of the Wilsons is actually the Sasha 2.

Reviews of the XLF by knowledgeable people also say otherwise, we will disagree on this point. I refer to exact equipment I own and have long experience with. Surely I can easily create a system and positioning in my room where I listen to the separate drivers.

But yes, the Sasha2 is an excellent speaker if people like the Wilson sound.

 

[bonzo75]

Reviews of the XLF by knowledgeable people also say otherwise, we will disagree on this point. I refer to exact equipment I own and have long experience with. Surely I can easily create a system and positioning in my room where I listen to the separate drivers.

But yes, the Sasha2 is an excellent speaker if people like the Wilson sound.

People who agree with you aren't necessarily knowledgeable.

They might prefer the sound. But inability to hear the disparity is simply a lack of knowledge/experience with more coherent speakers

 

[the sound of Tao]

Audiophiles are in love with sound. Music fans are in love with music.

It’s not the same. Not even close.

And I am a music fan. Hands down. And proud.

for years I’ve had a pair of large advents, a marantz 2240b, a gold ring turntable, and adcom 555.

And it’s been great. Maybe cost me 1500 bucks in all.

I decided to step up and got a set of mordaunt short high end speakers, a classe amp, halo parasound phono preamp, and an avid turntable. TOTALLY broke the bank for me. Used it was a 10k investment.


And it was a huge mistake.

The good stuff sounds AMAZING. BUT, the average stuff sounds awful. Zero middle ground. That’s just dumb. Made me listening to only certain music. And I became searching for what didn’t sound like crap. The opposite of what I hoped.

I was so disappointed. I am selling all the new high end stuff and going right back with my old set up. A setup that makes 95% of my albums just kick ass. The high end stuff made like 15% of my collection listenable.

Apparently I am not an audiophile despite having played professional guitar all over the world. And recording in the best studios in the USA. And being a tone junky.

Eye opener.

Let’s face it, you made some rubbish choices on your ‘audiophile’ gear purchases. I’m both a coherence and tone junky and an absolute music lover and if you are willing to pay the price a true high end system can do that all completely.

The price I’m talking about isn’t necessarily all cash, it’s really more about a crazy investment in patience and absolute commitment. When you open that Pandora’s box and go for ultimate fidelity you shouldn’t maybe expect that any kind of absolute perfection comes easy.

We all make mistakes and quite a few early choices chasing sonics can ultimately musically suck. I made some average choices early on, most of us do. Music systems take work, understanding and a kind of commitment that one quick shopping excursion just isn’t going to ever buy. It’s quite a journey... and music is absolutely the driver. Stick with it, get some decent gear (vintage or new) and am sure you’ll find some greater musical satisfaction and joy within that system.

 

[tima]

Don't know about the XLF but at a Alexia 2 demo a colleague of mine and I could hear clearly on familiar music that Wilson has wired the midrange inverted from the other drivers...It was pretty obvious and sounded strange to us because transients were blunted. At that time I wasn't entirely sure about this until I read the Stereophile review much later that confirmed what we heard and discussed at the time of the demo.

Yes the midrange is inverted. I presume you're talking about phase coherence. What about time coherence?

In his Alexia series 2 review, I don't recall Atkinson saying anything about strange sounds or blunted transients. While I don't go for all the awards that magazines offer, the A2 was Stereophiles product of the year.

 

[tima]

People who agree with you aren't necessarily knowledgeable.

They might prefer the sound. But inability to hear the disparity is simply a lack of knowledge/experience with more coherent speakers

Nor are they necessarily lacking in knowledge.

Let's pick one.

You are an avowed Michael Fremer groupie - I was under the impression you think him knowledgeable. M.Fremer owned XLFs and thought highly of them. Many of his reviews that you like were done with XLFs. I don't recall him mentioning driver disparity. He traded in his XLFs for Wilson Alexx speakers. Do his choices reflect "simply a lack of knowledge/experience with more coherent speakers" ?

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Vivids shape and “not boxy” sound is a hypothesis. That can’t be proven unless you put the same parts in a “box”.

And not be able to see them when listening.

 

[bonzo75]

Nor are they necessarily lacking in knowledge.

Let's pick one.

You are an avowed Michael Fremer groupie - I was under the impression you think him knowledgeable. M.Fremer owned XLFs and thought highly of them. Many of his reviews that you like were done with XLFs. I don't recall him mentioning driver disparity. He traded in his XLFs for Wilson Alexx speakers. Do his choices reflect "simply a lack of knowledge/experience with more coherent speakers" ?

Avowed Michael Fremer groupie is very different from saying I really respect his analog reviews. He seems to describe things as he hears them instead of over exaggeration or random vocabulary. He seems quite honest in his recommendations, often not going ballistic about everything newer and more expensive.

I don't ever remember saying I follow nor care for his experience with speakers and amps. He seems to be an analogphile who is set up with the downstream gear he has and most of the time focuses on analog swaps.

 

[caesar]

Wolfgang enjoyed the Ultra 11s when he visited. They do share presentational traits with his omni magic come to think of it.

I am not up to date on all the models, but I have heard Fremer play records on their Ultra 9 model and it was sublime!

 

[caesar]

Is Mike's room the result of luck, or is it the result of hard work and effort? One could also ask if his ability to afford such a room is a result of luck or hard work and effort.

Hi Peter,
What's the saying on luck, "opportunity favors the prepared mind", or something like that?

Mike is both lucky to have the room/ real estate he has, and skilled in making the most of it.

So Mike is in the group of lucky and great. His success is deserved.

Yet there are folks in NYC, London, and other places that may make 7 figures, but due to uncontrollable factors of their real estate situation, get crappy sound. Bad luck in getting good sound due to life situation...

Other scenarios could be a potentially good room, but bad luck with the acoustical approach, so bad sound.

Of course, there are lucky bastards who get good sound through pure dumb luck.

And of course, the scenario of a bad room, no acoustical approach and bad sound. Deserved as well.

 

[caesar]

Hi Caesar,
Obviously I don’t know what you hear or how you hear things, but i thought you may be interested in observations based on what I hear.
Let’s take a good recording; something like Jeff Golub’s The Vault or Jan Garbarek’s Legend of the Seven Dreams.

The listening room disappears and is filled with the recording’s acoustic, a kind of atmosphere that fills the entire space with a kind of aural ‘texture’. Within this space instruments have a defined presence and life. Notes starts with a pinpoint ‘percussion’ and blossom out into their defined acoustic space....some notes decaying sideways and other notes decaying upwards. The notes have shape, sounding like they originate from a guitar string or from a saxaphone. Voices sound like they come from a mouth, with breaths, lip sounds, swallows and wet tongue noises. Each instrument has an individual identity with timbre, shape, note dynamics and decay. The sound sends shivers down your spine. The instruments all have their individual acoustic space, defined in all 3 dimensions. If the recording captured venue acoustics, they define the size of the listening environment, stronger notes having more clearly defined reflections. Brass instruments have attack, with tremendous note dynamics that start with an initial brashness and brightness, followed by mellow decay, the music punctuated by controlled breathy sounds of air passing over reeds. All instruments in the mix can be heard individually but together weave a glorious tapestry of rhythmic interplay, giving the music tremendous impetus, forward motion and drive. The music is highly involving, pulling the listener in, blotting out conscious thought and stimulating emotions and feelings....Garbarek having the feel of cold, lonely Northern Fjords, pine forests and glaciers, while Golub has more of a bustling city feeling, fast moving pace about it.
So what about the speakers? The what? Speakers? There’s not the slightest inkling that all this wonderful music is artificially created...the thought simply doesn’t occur as your mind is simply basking in all wonderful music. On reflection, does it sound lifelike? You betcha. Does it sound like the original sounded? No idea as I have absolutely no clue what the original sounded like for comparison and frankly I couln’t give a damn. All I know is that if the original sounded anything like as good as this it must have been pretty special (assuming of course that there ever was an original since these are studio albums)
So getting back to your point Caesar, I’m amazed that when you’re listening to something similar to what I’ve described you can actually pick out each driver’s contribution, when I can’t even pick out that there’s a pair of loudspeakers involved. What’s the music not doing that you’re able to listen through all the above to hear a driver’s contribution?

Thank you for your thoughtful response. My short reply is twofold

First, subjectivity (here's a little primer I put together on subjectivity: https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...-and-predictability.22285/page-16#post-433756).

It's also personal tastes/ what we are used to.... My kids are going nuts, and I have to do something with them now, but I will collect some thoughts on this...


P.S. I will also check out your suggested recordings. Thank you for sharing.

 

[caesar]

Intent may play a role. If I stop listening to music and start listening for drivers I can hear any driver I want.

I get grabbed by the music immediately, or not. I would rather listen to music in my car than on hyped -up, well marketed box speakers. Just like the OP.

Obviously you feel differently, which makes this so fun. And I sincerely hope you keep enjoying what you are enjoying.

 

[Folsom]

And that is OK, IMO. Personally, I am both a gear head AND a music lover...in no particular order...more like it goes in waves. Being a scientist, I am naturally inclined to like the technical side of audio...I am naturally attracted to understanding the how's and why's of things. However, I am drawn to the particular hobby because I always loved listening to music as it relaxes me and also provides mental lubricant for my thought processes (state dependent learning? Could be...). However, I don't think it is good when these kinds of things become obsessions...obsessions are not healthy...

Absolutely ok!! It's ok to be a gear head not care much about the music if you like. I don't like bashing people for it, but if you notice that it's a "thing" that's fine.

 

[Folsom]

Interesting point about the amps making the drivers sound separate. i have heard this effect as well. I once took a KR Audio VA350i over to a guy to demo on his Sonics Allegra speakers (I think this was the model...it was modular and had a long ribbon tweeter). First we listened with his Gamut integrated amp and I was struck by how disconnected all the drivers sounded...it was easy to pinpoint each frequency range by the driver producing it. Then we put on the KR and suddenly it was a pretty well integrated speaker with pretty much one voice (it was not the equal of a good electrostat to be sure). Interesting effect and must somehow be related to the distortions produced by that equipment.

It's actually the lack of distortion that make it more and more obvious. Well but it won't show it's face if the speaker isn't damped too much or is integrated extremely well. Think about it, a tweeter and woofer are inherently very different things so it makes sense that if they become overly defined they run a chance of altering you of these differences. It's not a guarantee, but it's extremely common to hear this and so people choose amps that work with speakers for "synergy".

Sad fact is though that a lot of stuff like say the KR with the Allegra might sound entirely whole with some other changes in the electronics chain. You'd be surprised how many odd things can make a disjointed sound that aren't in the speaker or related to feedback! Cables are a big one.

 

[Blackmorec]

With all the talk about picking out drivers etc. I would like briefly point out the number of ways we can listen to music. Humans have the ability to focus their attention, which gives us a lot of flexibility and variation.
We can focus on single instruments, perhaps piano, or drums or saxophone and pretty much ignore everything else. This is the type of listening we use when playing air guitar for example
We can focus on the quality of sound, using our memory to compare sounds...for example trying to answer the question, does this trumpet, guitar or whatever sound lifelike?
We can focus on the rhythmic interplay of instruments, typically following the main rhythm highlighted by a few instruments pulling each other along.
Or we can suspend all conscious thought and focus on the entire musical composition....typically what we do when attending a live concert

However this ability does mean that I could sit through an entire concert and focus my attention on the contribution of the hall...listening for echoes and reflections if i so chose.
Similarly I could find my attention wandering and actually hear very little of the music, instead being focused on extraneous thoughts.

The same is true for hi-fi. I can focus on a great many different attributes.....tonal quality, timing, PRaT, individual drivers etc.

So here I would say is the biggest difference between music lovers and gear heads (notice I didn’t say audiophiles as I believe the posts above are enough proof that an audiophile can be both). Music lovers listen to the music....the composition, the beautiful timing, the interplay of instruments, the note shaping of great musicians....while gear heads listen to and appreciate things like sound stage, frequency extremes, PRaT, venue acoustics, recorded detail, system integration, musicality, naturalness, dynamics, silence between notes, air around instruments, tonal colour etc.

For me, the success or failure of a system lies in its ability to pull me in and engage me fully with the music, suspending conscious thought, without artefacts to break the spell and remind me that I’m listening to something synthetic. If a system can pull off that stunt, album after album, night after night I’m probably going to be a supporter. In my experience, its takes true system synergy to achieve this level of involvement and believability.....without synergy faults gradually appear and register on the conscious. True synergy is defined by the lack of a system identity, other than maybe a signature of speed, dynamics, accuracy and purity, typically qualities that don’t pall over time

 

[Robh3606]

"Audiophiles are in love with sound. Music fans are in love with music."

I simply can't agree from my own experience. I happen to love both and see no conflicts in doing so.

"I was so disappointed. I am selling all the new high end stuff and going right back with my old set up. A setup that makes 95% of my albums just kick ass. The high end stuff made like 15% of my collection listenable."

Sorry to hear that. Good luck down the road.

Rob

 

[cjfrbw]

Who cares about making apologies. It is a rich hobby exactly because it exists at multiple fascinating interfaces of science, art and perception. Music is an important part but not the only part.

Guys get obsessive and go around the bend a bit, that's what people with rewarding and interesting hobbies do.