What's Best? The Absolute Sound or today's High End Systems?

Back in the day of Harry Pearson and the evolution of the High End Audio, Pearson, in the pages of The Absolute Sound, defined the "absolute sound" as unamplified acoustic instruments and/or vocals performed in a real space, usually a concert hall. The evaluation of reproduction systems (HiFi equipment) was a based on a subjective comparison to the "absolute sound." The best systems came the closest to the sound of a live performance in a real space.

Over the last several years I have been a regular attendee of live music in San Francisco at Davies Symphony Hall and The Metropolitan Opera House. I have come to the realization that, in my opinion, the best sound and musical enjoyment happens at home with my highly evolved system, and I question weather it's worth the expense and effort to attend, other than for the occasional performance of a favorite artist.

I've tried various seating choices, always seeking the best. But more and more I have come to the conclusion that the best seat in the house (at least sonically) is at home! Do other WBF members share this view?

 

Keith the problem with EDM or basically anything but Jazz and classical is there’s no way to know what other references are accurate. Other genres are so manipulated that there is no “right” sound that sounds like a live instrument.

Ked, MTV generation??? Are you like thirty years older than one would think you are? Keith is the MTV generation; by the time I was old enough to care about music it was already dieing (becoming reality TV).

there is no absolute sound - its a hoax. most people on this forum have played musical instruments and yet all have different sounding systems. if that was the reference there would be many more similarities.

 

there is no absolute sound - its a hoax.

I don't see anyone who uses unamplified live sound as reference espousing an idea of "absolute sound". To pretend that they do is the hoax. I think most agree that live can sound very differently depending on hall, seating etc., but that live encompasses a range of sounds outside of which believability is lost.

 

I agree we all have different tastes, but what this thread about is if you don't go to classical or jazz concerts you have no reference of what music sounds like. This is 100% wrong in my opinion.

And I played clarinet for 6 years in both band and orchestra and have supported the arts for several decades now. My assistant's son uses my 20 year old Buffet clarinet and is in college now getting a music degree. I go to Disney Hall regularly - fyi, I was the youngest person in the orchestra section when Ron and I went to see chamber music earlier this year. I'm only 42.

But while the greatest generation was playing classical music records for the boomers growing up - that just doesn't happen now. I grew up on yacht rock cassette tapes in the car - none of them classical or opera lol. Fast forward to today, there are more electronic producers of music than classical musicians- take a look at Beatport or Bandcamp. People are recording music in bedrooms, not concert halls. Music has changed and audiophiles need to engage this change, not stick to Bernstein and Karajan as the only way to judge a hifi system. Have you sat in a studio with an EDM producer? I have. They are as much audiophiles as Kedar, the classical man, is.

The people going to Coachella, Burning Man, Tomorrowland, etc. are important. Gary Koh mentions this all the time when we talk about music. If classical and jazz are in every show room, we are doomed as a hobby. I just casually asked the millenials at my office if anyone listens to classical in their group of friends - the answer was no.

So do I find your trip to Vienna important to your hifi system? Not really - i think you enjoy hearing live music in the genre you most enjoy, like all of us. Besides, if the Vienna Philharmonic is your metric wouldn't you own Wilson speakers

I think Peter has Magicos .

I think you kind of miss the point about real acoustic instruments in real space as a reference. It is not about what music people prefer...I like a lot of electronic music and listen to it frequently. Live acoustic is the standard because we know what it should sound like...it’s hardwired from evolution.

With electronic music you have no idea what it should sound like and so then it cannot be used to determine if a stereo system sounds correct with it or not. If a well balanced system does acoustic music to a high degree of realism then I have found it will do well made electronic music very well also (but not realistic because there would be nothing real to compare it to).

What it might not do so well is heavily compressed “loudness wars” rock/pop recordings as these will sound just like that...probably not good.

It isn’t perfect and perhaps only a partial reference in practice but it is the only anchor to reality in which to base a comparative judgement...if you care about that sort of thing...

 

I think you kind of miss the point about real acoustic instruments in real space as a reference. It is not about what music people prefer...I like a lot of electronic music and listen to it frequently. Live acoustic is the standard because we know what it should sound like...it’s hardwired from evolution.

we all have an idea of what an electric guitar sounds like, no? how about a Diana Krall type vocal? or Michael Jackson - one of the most iconic voices ever?

so I can't use rock, electronica, hip hop, or any other genre except classical and jazz for auditions? why would I buy a system for music I don't listen to.

 

there are plenty of references. please tell me how an electric guitar sounds based on classical concerts. or how electronica sounds because of 30 instruments sitting in front of you, not moving. people aren't going to operas to discern female vocals in their systems either. most concert halls sound different, so what's the absolute bestist one that I should frame my system after? certainly not Avery Fisher Hall ime. Chick Corea as noted doesn't like Disney Hall.

its "what's best to the individual" really. you and PeterA go to classical concerts regularly and think 100% different on sound. i haven't been to the BSO in years, but its quite a respected auditorium. so what's the disconnect?

there is no right or wrong. that's why these debates are all stupid, agreed. audio forums really should be about synergistic pairings of equipment, not which equipment is best and only one way of evaluating it.

the average Stereophile reader age is above 50, up over 10 years in 10 years. noodle on that for a bit and ask why. you're playing for the losing team.

There is no team. There is I. And there is no I in team (except in team America)

I could care less if no one below 30 ever got into high end audio. Manufacturers should worry about it if they want a sustainable long term business. Not hobbyists. Youngsters should get into test match cricket, not high end audio.

There is no right way for amplified music. There is a right way for unamplified. And a wrong tone is just wrong. And 50 instruments are much harder for a stereo to replicate than 4. So these serve my high end sport well

 

there is no absolute sound - its a hoax. most people on this forum have played musical instruments and yet all have different sounding systems. if that was the reference there would be many more similarities.

Well, I half agree. There is no definitive “correct” sound. But maybe the biggest reason for a standard is because production varies so extensively - including limitations of the process. A stereo is about half of the battle, but none of that entirely changes things like we recognize from a live instrument to playback.

And I’ve said it many times, different people have different ideas of what sounds like live music. That’s very clear, and a driving factor of most stereos.

“The absolute sound” might be unrealistic, but in general having reproduction that gets a lot of things right isn’t.

 

I could care less if no one below 30 ever got into high end audio. Manufacturers should worry about it if they want a sustainable long term business. Not hobbyists. Youngsters should get into test match cricket, not high end audio.

Really? Because if they don’t then there may not be anyone even manufacturing anything by the time you’re building a stereo

I care. Anyone in the industry younger than 55 should care.

 

Really? Because if they don’t then there may not be anyone even manufacturing anything by the time you’re building a stereo

I care. Anyone in the industry younger than 55 should care.

I am anyway buying stuff not made anymore.

 

we all have an idea of what an electric guitar sounds like, no? how about a Diana Krall type vocal? or Michael Jackson - one of the most iconic voices ever?

so I can't use rock, electronica, hip hop, or any other genre except classical and jazz for auditions? why would I buy a system for music I don't listen to.

Any electric guitar?? They can sound like literally anything. I was at a Christmas party Friday with a band and even that guy must have 20 different effects pedals! I will grant you that hearing one live direct through an amp is rarely captured that dynamically. Live through a PA still has some liveness to it. But you still don’t know what it really should sound like.

Female singer, relatively unprocessed is good but range limited. Same for male voice, but a quartet of voices will cover a wider range. Those could of course be used if you know they weren’t auto tuned or overly compressed.

As I said, it is not about music you like it is about music that can demonstrate a systems potential to sound correct. Get that right and you can be pretty sure the other music you like is being reproduced correctly. Of course a spot check on music you like should be done as well and a mix to insure the system differentiates recordings well is a good idea.

 

Maybe it was a link to an article someone posted in this thread, but worth reposting. Read the sonic impressions section about the Omega ribbon speaker by Analysis, the piano reproduction comments are most enlightened.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/superioraudio/equipment/0410/analysis_audio_omega.htm

 

High end's been around since before you & I were born and it will still be around when we're to old to play, there's just something about the damn equipment that's always been a turn on! Look at this even at the Bunny Mansion!

david

Thanks David. That is a classic Deep Purple, Mark 1, video. The vibe, the dancers, the intro, everything about it is so cool. Oh, and I love the music.

 

Wow this is so much better than the studio version. Jon Lord is brilliant though didn't know then a keyboard player would be the talker for a rock group. The dresses are hilarious

 

there are plenty of references. please tell me how an electric guitar sounds based on classical concerts. or how electronica sounds because of 30 instruments sitting in front of you, not moving. people aren't going to operas to discern female vocals in their systems either. most concert halls sound different, so what's the absolute bestist one that I should frame my system after? certainly not Avery Fisher Hall ime. Chick Corea as noted doesn't like Disney Hall.

its "what's best to the individual" really. you and PeterA go to classical concerts regularly and think 100% different on sound. i haven't been to the BSO in years, but its quite a respected auditorium. so what's the disconnect?

there is no right or wrong. that's why these debates are all stupid, agreed. audio forums really should be about synergistic pairings of equipment, not which equipment is best and only one way of evaluating it.

the average Stereophile reader age is above 50, up over 10 years in 10 years. noodle on that for a bit and ask why. you're playing for the losing team.

Keith, I'm not so sure Kedar and I are 100% different on sound. He recommended some recordings to me for precisely the sonic qualities he and I both seem to value. Those recordings are excellent, and I am evolving my system precisely to capture more of what those recordings offer. Our current approaches may be different, but not entirely. He and I both love the vdH Master Signature cartridge. He likes the 3012R tonearm, belt drive turntables. Who says that I would not like large horn systems driven by SET amps? For various reasons, my system has evolved in different ways, but that doesn't mean I would not like that type of sound. Sorry, but I think your claim is not supported by any real evidence. You can compare my Magico Q3s to the liste of speakers he wants to someday own, but really, does that mean 100% divergent? I think not.

IMO, you are asking the wrong question. What is "absolute bestist one that you should frame your system after"? No one is suggesting such a thing. Some of us are simply suggesting that some standard should be used for evaluating the accuracy of a system. I don't happen to think that there is an "absolute sound", having been to many live venues. There is a range that instruments sound like in a range of real spaces, and we can hear that and understand that, and we can refer to our memories of that for guidance. That is all. You are free to use whatever standard you wish, and others are free to use acoustic instruments in real spaces. It's all good.

The OP asks about "the absolute sound" vs. home systems. Where are the best seats. I don't know the answer to that. I prefer different things on different occasions with different music, and as I just wrote, I don't believe there is an "absolute sound".

Finally, I do not think that It is not all about opera or classical music. It's about whatever music you think is groovy. Let's live and let live and not tell others what type of music they should listen to. I assure you that those geezer genres are not "dead". This isn't about imposing one's views onto others. It's about reading and discussing with other members what they think about listening to real (actual, live music, regardless of genre) versus listening at home to their systems. And if a comparison is made for accuracy, what is the best music for that purpose.

I don't know why you are taking the discussion to manufacturers having to understand what people in their 30s are listening to and how they are listening. There seem to be other threads about that.

 

I'm going to use some acoustic music to fine tune my speaker positioning in the next few days, as I have been doing to fine tune my new cartridge/tonearm set up. Then I will expand my musical genres to include some pop and rock for confirmation, and for when I want to simply enjoy the sound of my system. I will then try to figure out if I prefer sitting at home listening to a much different sounding system or going to live shows. I suspect that I will do a smattering of each for the foreseeable future. They are both enjoyable for different reasons, as are those great vintage Deep Purple, Black Sabbath, and Led Zeppelin youtube videos. Now if only we could watch a video of Mozart conducting one of his compositions in Vienna.

 

I think hi-end will keep trending evolving but original vintage will keep rising. Some like Lamm will become tomorrow vintage.

And the AS2000 will become a mythical, unobtainable legend.

 

(...) I'm going to Vienna in February to listen to the VPO for five days of rehearsals and evening performances at the Musikverein. You might not care about that, and that is fine. But are you suggesting that we someone replace the group who is reading this thread and posting comments with some group of younger listeners who use headphones and don't like opera? Perhaps you can find them discussing this topic on some computer audio forum.

BTW, I went to Vienna seven years ago and spend five days listening to opera rehearsals and evening performances at the State Opera. It was fantastic. If you think opera is dead, you haven't been to Vienna and seen the passion over there. The audience was actually a lot younger than at the BSO. (...)

Peter,

Five days listening to music at the Vienna State Opera confirmed you as Magico fond, let us see if five days at the Musikverein will change you in a Wilson Audio boy!

The true reason of my post is to refer to a link about David Wilson discussing the acoustics of the Musikverein https://www.stereophile.com/content/living-sound-meets-living-art - I hope you will enjoy it. I would had loved to read the complete original Wilson talk.

 

Pardon the cliche' but OP is presenting an "apples or oranges" rhetorical: Live music in a dedicated venue,, versus reproduced music in one's home.

The choice is yours. I prefer to experience both, depending on logistics.

 

And the AS2000 will become a mythical, unobtainable legend.

Already is !
david

 

Any electric guitar?? They can sound like literally anything. I was at a Christmas party Friday with a band and even that guy must have 20 different effects pedals! I will grant you that hearing one live direct through an amp is rarely captured that dynamically. Live through a PA still has some liveness to it. But you still don’t know what it really should sound like.

Correct. For example, I like a 'dirty' electric guitar sound. On the Ensemble Reference speakers that I had for 25 years, I often had that sound. On the successors in my system, Reference 3A MM DeCapo BE, sometimes less so. On my current Reference 3A Reflector speakers, it is again more often so.

Yet what is really going on? It's not that the middle speakers in that list are worse than the Ensemble Reference. No, they are unquestionably better. The speakers present a more refined, more colorful and less distorted sound on recorded unamplified acoustic instruments. In turn, the same holds for my current Reflector speakers; they again are better than the middle speakers in the list the same way as these topped the first ones.

Turns out, guitar sounded often 'dirtier' on the Ensemble Reference because the speaker distorts more. On the Reflector on the other hand it often sounds 'dirty' because that speaker presents the most differentiated and articulate sound if all three, and thus is also able to apparently portray more of the true nature of electric guitar with its often intrinsic distortion through the guitar amp. Here it sounds dirty for the right reasons, on the Ensemble Reference for the wrong reasons (and the 'dirtiness' is also more expressive and differentiated on the Reflector). Without the reference of unamplified live music you could not nearly as confidently make the above qualitative judgement about the sound of electric guitar on the three speakers.

 

Any electric guitar?? They can sound like literally anything.

If you can't tell a Gibson vs Fender that's not my problem.