What's Best? The Absolute Sound or today's High End Systems?

Back in the day of Harry Pearson and the evolution of the High End Audio, Pearson, in the pages of The Absolute Sound, defined the "absolute sound" as unamplified acoustic instruments and/or vocals performed in a real space, usually a concert hall. The evaluation of reproduction systems (HiFi equipment) was a based on a subjective comparison to the "absolute sound." The best systems came the closest to the sound of a live performance in a real space.

Over the last several years I have been a regular attendee of live music in San Francisco at Davies Symphony Hall and The Metropolitan Opera House. I have come to the realization that, in my opinion, the best sound and musical enjoyment happens at home with my highly evolved system, and I question weather it's worth the expense and effort to attend, other than for the occasional performance of a favorite artist.

I've tried various seating choices, always seeking the best. But more and more I have come to the conclusion that the best seat in the house (at least sonically) is at home! Do other WBF members share this view?

 

I believe they are in a paradox and come to the show with an entirely different sense of reality and values given the current state of audio and the different choices available today. Some "old school" manufacturers are sticking with the past marketing techniques and charge unrealistic, unaffordable prices for those that are so inclined to pursue superior sound. Others are adapting providing good sq, competitive pricing, and offering features that todays lifestyle and music delivering technologies provide. Ultimately, I think the "others" will prevail.

Yes, the "others" will prevail and the age of $ 20 K DACs, $ 50 K amps and $ 100 K speakers will come to an end. But hey, who am I to say that with my $ 15 K preamp .

 

There's no shortage of ultra expensive luxury toys from cars & jets to handbags and everything in between that are doing great, why not high end audio?

david

 

There's no shortage of ultra expensive luxury toys from cars & jets to handbags and everything in between that are doing great, why not high end audio?

david

You have a point here!

 

You have a point here!

High end's been around since before you & I were born and it will still be around when we're to old to play, there's just something about the damn equipment that's always been a turn on! Look at this even at the Bunny Mansion!

david

 

High end's been around since before you & I were born and it will still be around when we're to old to play, there's just something about the damn equipment that's always been a turn on! Look at this even at the Bunny Mansion!

david

Looks like #FakeHighEnd except for the girls #HighMaintenance

 

The visual presentation of the music for me can be more captivating then the music itself. I view the soundstage very important especially when listening to classical or most well done recordings. The room seams to disappear which can have a large effect on the illusion. It’s one of those things that once I experienced it, there was no going back.

Roger D touched on the perceptional aspects of attending a live performance. There are other stimuli/factors present at a live performance which are absent at home. Watching the physical movement of the performers, checking out the audience members, enjoying the architectural space, and the psycho-emotional component of “being in a crowd” all change our perception and our ability to concentrate on the sound. At home, listening through a system whose sonic footprint we innately understand, we may well be able to more closely delineate fine musical details which can be lost in the moment while attending a live event.

In my mind, attending live events provides enjoyment that contains other elements besides sound quality.

Lee

Actually I was talking about the soundstage (visual) presentation in my listening room. Especially on classical recordings but also well engineered minimal mic'd ones also. I can visualize the orchestra in front of me or the layout. This also exists in some live recordings.

 

IMO, where these high end systems excel, especially single ended triodes are with smaller ensembles with no amplification. Let's say a great female or male vocalist with an acoustic guitar or cello. It can get pretty spooky.

 

Lol. But since there are only 7 audiophiles under 50 years old on the entire planet it may not be that relevant what music they listen to Keith and at least two of them (Ked and Bill) are committed classical music lover and concert goers or musos. Across the world classical music is still being taught and played and listened to by all ages. Jazz music is alive and some of the most interesting jazz is happening with a lot of musos who are young and also create and play with hip hop, rap, rnb fusion.

As a music lover first I do love many genres of music including old school and new jazz and classical and so does my music loving 20 year old nephew. He has many great 50’s and 60’s jazz on vinyl but also streams plus has a great love for classical because his step father over the years has played him some of the best of classical recordings. As a typical twenty year old he would also consider many of the under 50 audiophiles as still rather old in the scheme of things.

Big picture classical and jazz music lovers have not really been in the majority for a long time, but it is interesting that listening to a great sound system can often broaden people’s taste. Btw my 20 year old nephew now has my old harbeth 30.1s and my old dac and some straightwire cables I had spare and is currently eyeing off one of my SET amps and wants all three of my speakers when I (as a 50 plus dude) shuffle off to visit the choir invisible. So he is unfortunately also now at risk of becoming a 20 year old audiophile as well as a committed music lover. May the universe protect his very vulnerable species status.

I guess I am one of the 7 then!

 

We have an issue if posters are correct that classical music and live jazz are the standards for any definition of absolute sound - in that no one under 50 listens to either genre. Most of the boomers grew up with classical music in its heyday but that was decades ago. Opera has been dead even longer lol.

How are these younger listeners evaluating hifi gear now and in the future. It's certainly not by going to the BSO or Disney Hall. In fact, many of them are headphones listeners which is quite the opposite.

I am under 50 and found my way to classical and jazz in my 30s. Before that I listened mostly to pop/rock and electronica. As people get older their music tastes can change and some turn towards more acoustic types of music. There will always be a small but relatively constant resupply of these types of music. I was just at a children’s concert at Tonhalle in Zürich last Sunday and a new generation is being exposed to classical music (never mind the fact that the orchestra was all teens as was the choir). When I go to Nik Baertsch shows I would say nearly half are under 40...this is not simple music to digest but people are willing to go hear it.

 

We have an issue if posters are correct that classical music and live jazz are the standards for any definition of absolute sound - in that no one under 50 listens to either genre. Most of the boomers grew up with classical music in its heyday but that was decades ago. Opera has been dead even longer lol.

How are these younger listeners evaluating hifi gear now and in the future. It's certainly not by going to the BSO or Disney Hall. In fact, many of them are headphones listeners which is quite the opposite.

Classical music was never in its heyday except 100 to 500 years ago. Rock was in the heydey when boomers grew up. Classical music, apart from those who start playing at an young age, is always a more cultivated taste that develops later in age. I believe the reasons for this are: at an younger age, the channels like MTV, V, clubs, and restaurants that expose us to music are not going to play all out classical. To actually gain classical music exposure (and I am not referring to audiophiles with high end systems)... You have to start attending concerts. This requires a lot of money that will come only once you start becoming well off on your own, so naturally you will be older by that time

 

Classical music and jazz can be accessed live, it can be accessed through the great recordings, some people love sound as much as they love music or more, some just love music and sound be damned. It’s all good as long as people are truly engaging in what feeds them best.

It’s pretty easy to see how some people could think that their way is particularly special or the only way because every one has their own version of a peak experience but truth be told every way is valid if it actually connects you to music... or to the experience of sound which may just be another more unconscious way to experience music. Every journey is valid.

Go to the concert hall, buy audiophile records and tapes, stream music, sit at home and admire the shiny gear that you have collected and whack on some tunes... or do it all, do anything but watch reality television or waste a lot of energy arguing with others that their chosen way is just not valid. It’s always about you, not them. All ways can lead to nirvana and the music if you are just ready and open and willing to try and experience.

 

Folks like me and others in their "senior years" are rapidly becoming the dinosaurs of the hi end industry.

Dinosaurs once ruled the earth. For ~160 million years.
Today, if we are becoming dinosaurs perhaps our breed will do will.
Perhaps this time it's different.
After all, the digital meteor struck and we survived.

 

Yes, the depth/distance perception of that offstage orchestra in the finale of Mahler's Second Symphony (I assume that is what you meant) can sound at home almost as spectacular as live (sitting close to main orchestra), if your system and room are up to it.

Thanks Al. Also ... maybe not an 'orchestra' personnel wise but I was thinking of off stage trumpets in Titan because I played earlier that day. Effect you mention is there too.

 

Keith, you make valid points. However, those reading and participating in this particular thread do seem to use classical music and live jazz as standards. At least some of them do. And some of us go to the BSO. I'm going to Vienna in February to listen to the VPO for five days of rehearsals and evening performances at the Musikverein. You might not care about that, and that is fine. But are you suggesting that we someone replace the group who is reading this thread and posting comments with some group of younger listeners who use headphones and don't like opera? Perhaps you can find them discussing this topic on some computer audio forum.

BTW, I went to Vienna seven years ago and spend five days listening to opera rehearsals and evening performances at the State Opera. It was fantastic. If you think opera is dead, you haven't been to Vienna and seen the passion over there. The audience was actually a lot younger than at the BSO.

We all have different tastes Keith, and that is what is so wonderful about music. It can bring people together.

I agree we all have different tastes, but what this thread about is if you don't go to classical or jazz concerts you have no reference of what music sounds like. This is 100% wrong in my opinion.

And I played clarinet for 6 years in both band and orchestra and have supported the arts for several decades now. My assistant's son uses my 20 year old Buffet clarinet and is in college now getting a music degree. I go to Disney Hall regularly - fyi, I was the youngest person in the orchestra section when Ron and I went to see chamber music earlier this year. I'm only 42.

But while the greatest generation was playing classical music records for the boomers growing up - that just doesn't happen now. I grew up on yacht rock cassette tapes in the car - none of them classical or opera lol. Fast forward to today, there are more electronic producers of music than classical musicians- take a look at Beatport or Bandcamp. People are recording music in bedrooms, not concert halls. Music has changed and audiophiles need to engage this change, not stick to Bernstein and Karajan as the only way to judge a hifi system. Have you sat in a studio with an EDM producer? I have. They are as much audiophiles as Kedar, the classical man, is.

The people going to Coachella, Burning Man, Tomorrowland, etc. are important. Gary Koh mentions this all the time when we talk about music. If classical and jazz are in every show room, we are doomed as a hobby. I just casually asked the millenials at my office if anyone listens to classical in their group of friends - the answer was no.

So do I find your trip to Vienna important to your hifi system? Not really - i think you enjoy hearing live music in the genre you most enjoy, like all of us. Besides, if the Vienna Philharmonic is your metric wouldn't you own Wilson speakers

 

This is a what's best forum. Not what would appeal to the MTV generation forum. We have earphones, headphones, car radio, even going up to Bose.

This is a sport - you might play it for fun, but there are references, scales, scores and staggered to judge to. You need to have a reference or we might as well end audio debates and only discuss politics

 

I play every kind of music at every show we do and in my showroom. There is a degree of arrogance and condescension from old school audiophiles that want to believe that there is only "their music" is to listen to and decide. HP was my mentor and although his expertise and first love was large scale classical music he also learned to love other music as well. I think that our Industry has to evolve and realize where the listeners come from and what they like. Most of the popular music that is produced today comes from Nashville and IMHO its totally over looked by the audio community. There is a lot of great music coming from there and it is growing and thriving. Trying to force feed Classical or Jazz or anything else to the young and upcoming generation is not a great idea. We all need to open our minds and our doors to the joy of all music lovers since that is the only way to grow and support what we love. One more thing when I do a show I refuse to play the same old same old Diana Krall and Stevie Ray and Jennifer Warnes from the 1980's. Have fun , open your mind and enjoy it all.

 

I play every kind of music at every show we do and in my showroom. There is a degree of arrogance and condescension from old school audiophiles that want to believe that there is only "their music" is to listen to and decide. HP was my mentor and although his expertise and first love was large scale classical music he also learned to love other music as well. I think that our Industry has to evolve and realize where the listeners come from and what they like. Most of the popular music that is produced today comes from Nashville and IMHO its totally over looked by the audio community. There is a lot of great music coming from there and it is growing and thriving. Trying to force feed Classical or Jazz or anything else to the young and upcoming generation is not a great idea. We all need to open our minds and our doors to the joy of all music lovers since that is the only way to grow and support what we love.

While I would not know how to evolve my system without unamplified live music as a reference, you do have a point. I like LOTS of other music too. Just on the other thread I emphasized the criteria for a system to be able to play rock, how important that capability is, and how many systems that can play classical can NOT play rock (and I did sense some snobbism there in the implication that rock is "easy"). Just yesterday evening I listened to electronica (Steve Roach).

One more thing when I do a show I refuse to play the same old same old Diana Krall and Stevie Ray and Jennifer Warnes from the 1980's.

Yes, YES, YES!!!!! Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please, tell this to other exhibitors too. One reason I don't like to go to shows very much is the music is always the same lame stuff. Why the hell should I torture myself?

Have fun , open your mind and enjoy it all.

We will!

 

This is a what's best forum. Not what would appeal to the MTV generation forum. We have earphones, headphones, car radio, even going up to Bose.

This is a sport - you might play it for fun, but there are references, scales, scores and staggered to judge to. You need to have a reference or we might as well end audio debates and only discuss politics

there are plenty of references. please tell me how an electric guitar sounds based on classical concerts. or how electronica sounds because of 30 instruments sitting in front of you, not moving. people aren't going to operas to discern female vocals in their systems either. most concert halls sound different, so what's the absolute bestist one that I should frame my system after? certainly not Avery Fisher Hall ime. Chick Corea as noted doesn't like Disney Hall.

its "what's best to the individual" really. you and PeterA go to classical concerts regularly and think 100% different on sound. i haven't been to the BSO in years, but its quite a respected auditorium. so what's the disconnect?

there is no right or wrong. that's why these debates are all stupid, agreed. audio forums really should be about synergistic pairings of equipment, not which equipment is best and only one way of evaluating it.

the average Stereophile reader age is above 50, up over 10 years in 10 years. noodle on that for a bit and ask why. you're playing for the losing team.

 

Keith the problem with EDM or basically anything but Jazz and classical is there’s no way to know what other references are accurate. Other genres are so manipulated that there is no “right” sound that sounds like a live instrument.

Ked, MTV generation??? Are you like thirty years older than one would think you are? Keith is the MTV generation; by the time I was old enough to care about music it was already dieing (becoming reality TV).

 

there are plenty of references. please tell me how an electric guitar sounds based on classical concerts. or how electronica sounds because of 30 instruments sitting in front of you, not moving. people aren't going to operas to discern female vocals in their systems either. most concert halls sound different, so what's the absolute bestist one that I should frame my system after? certainly not Avery Fisher Hall ime. Chick Corea doesn't like Disney Hall.

its "what's best to the individual" really. you and PeterA go to classical concerts regularly and think 100% different on sound. i haven't been to the BSO in years, but its quite a respected auditorium. so what's the disconnect?

there is no right or wrong. that's why these debates are all stupid, agreed. audio forums really should be about synergistic pairings of equipment, not which equipment is best and only one way of evaluating it.

the average Stereophile reader age is above 50, up over 10 years in 10 years. noodle on that for a bit and ask why. you're playing for the losing team.

Different halls don’t change most of what makes an instrument sound like itself. The microphones are often right at the instruments, or certain ones. You still get the character you do in w chamber performance but with a change in ambient sound and volume relative to other players.