What's Best? The Absolute Sound or today's High End Systems?

Back in the day of Harry Pearson and the evolution of the High End Audio, Pearson, in the pages of The Absolute Sound, defined the "absolute sound" as unamplified acoustic instruments and/or vocals performed in a real space, usually a concert hall. The evaluation of reproduction systems (HiFi equipment) was a based on a subjective comparison to the "absolute sound." The best systems came the closest to the sound of a live performance in a real space.

Over the last several years I have been a regular attendee of live music in San Francisco at Davies Symphony Hall and The Metropolitan Opera House. I have come to the realization that, in my opinion, the best sound and musical enjoyment happens at home with my highly evolved system, and I question weather it's worth the expense and effort to attend, other than for the occasional performance of a favorite artist.

I've tried various seating choices, always seeking the best. But more and more I have come to the conclusion that the best seat in the house (at least sonically) is at home! Do other WBF members share this view?

 

There's "I want to hear what the recording engineer has given us" but that leaves out the part that says "... and I want to hear it my way."

The mere lack of something - the absence of homogenization - only gets us so far. No two systems that are capable of differentiating across recordings will sound the same - if for no other reason than they can't exist in the same space at the same time - but likely more so for reasons of their owner's basis of preference.

Presumably one who prefers the sound of his stereo over a live event (and vice versa) finds differences in the sonic character of each.

Recording a concert is not listening to a concert. Both 'process' information, but the equipment is different. The so=called absolute sound may be approached asymptotically - that's known-in-advance to the naturalist who takes the journey as the goal. The synthesist has no reference other than self-consistency though he may very well evolve over what he prefers to be consistent about, given optimization and gear evolution. I don't think we can say the recording laid down on a record is a reference because it is only knowable through a system and each system is different.

The characterization of each camp does nothing to thwart either from satisfaction and music enjoyment.

 

Perhaps this is your opinion because no one has ever reached a consensus of what live sounds like with you.

Sorry, considering this is not a wizardry or divination forum, discussing your guesses is not interesting at all for me. And fortunately I have more motivating things to discuss with people I meet at live performances.

In my audiophile circles there has been a significant convergence on what sounds natural and right and what sounds synthetic and this shows in the gear choices.

You are just confirming what I said before several times about groups sharing the same preferences when you refer to "my audiophile circles". Narrowing the sample to those who agree with us does not bring anything new to debate.

 

It is no standard and changes whichever way the wind blows. It is fine if that is all you care about and there are millions of Bose wave radio owners who would agree with you ( I know my Dad said something similar when he bought one a long time ago). Sounding like live has not much to do with anything you listed. Have you ever mistook a recording played back through a PA for live? Have you ever heard live from blocks away and just KNEW it was live even without seeing or even just barely hearing it? It is not about sonic impressions it is hard wired in your senses. Doesn’t matter how loud, how quiet, how clear , sited or not. A rabbit hole ? The real rabbit hole is “ sounds good” because guys I knew like this changed gear like their underwear because that standard changed daily.

Millions of Bose wave radio owners will would agree, as well as thousands of audiophiles with great systems and audio scholars that studied the subject. The use of a live classical music reference is not better than the intrinsic feeling that people have of what is a good audio system just because they have permanent live experience with "natural" sound during their lives.

Focusing on a particular technique or reference for evaluation creates preferences, not universal standards.

 

(...) Recording a concert is not listening to a concert. Both 'process' information, but the equipment is different. The so=called absolute sound may be approached asymptotically - that's known-in-advance to the naturalist who takes the journey as the goal. (...)

IMHO unfortunately the approach is not asymptotic in stereo sound reproduction because at some point we have divergence in the evolution. In stereo at the same point the illusion is created mostly with the contribution and experience of the listener, that rebuilds the scene using data points created by his experience and interpretation of small cues.

Everyone accepts that recording a concert results includes the contribution to art from the performer and the sound engineer. However people debate if the audio designer or even the audio system designer contributes to the art - it is a very interesting subject. If we accept an absolute reference they can be considered as simple technicians that should reproduce a model. However, if they bring something new and personnel to the sound reproduction that brings the music closer to what recreates in us the emotion of listening to music they become part of the art our systems transmit.

 

IMHO unfortunately the approach is not asymptotic in stereo sound reproduction because at some point we have divergence in the evolution. In stereo at the same point the illusion is created mostly with the contribution and experience of the listener, that rebuilds the scene using data points created by his experience and interpretation of small cues.

Everyone accepts that recording a concert results includes the contribution to art from the performer and the sound engineer. However people debate if the audio designer or even the audio system designer contributes to the art - it is a very interesting subject. If we accept an absolute reference they can be considered as simple technicians that should reproduce a model. However, if they bring something new and personnel to the sound reproduction that brings the music closer to what recreates in us the emotion of listening to music they become part of the art our systems transmit.

You are somewhat caught between values when you equate the value of an engineer in recording to the value of an artist in the musical performance... engineers simply cannot be equal to the contribution of the musician if you value music as opposed to valuing the sound. Egotistical musical producers and engineers that take creative control away from the musicians can be the bane of true musical appreciation and much more of interest to the pure lovers of the sound than they are to the lovers of music. Great engineers serve the artist and the music and not their needs for self driven technical control.

 

You are somewhat caught between values when we equate the value of an engineer in recording to the value of the artist in the performance... engineer simply cannot be equal to the contribution of the musician if you value music as opposed to valuing the sound. Egotistical musical producers and engineers are the bane of true musical appreciation and more of interest to the pure lovers of the sound raa as there than the lovers of music.

Sorry if you got this idea, I am not equating at all. I am just stating they also contribute with some significance. And focusing on those who have positive contributions!

 

Sorry if you got this idea, I am not equating at all. I am just stating they also contribute with some significance. And focusing on those who have positive contributions!

We can all appreciate the work of professionals but the great work of the technician is small significance to the music lover. If you just love the sonics I get how this could then be different. A great recorded bit of rubbish musical performance is just not significant. In some ways a great recording of rubbish musical performance is something of a hollow vessel... that tale full of sound and fury signifying nothing. Even just average recordings of a great performance can be lasting and very important .

 

Everyone accepts that recording a concert results includes the contribution to art from the performer and the sound engineer. However people debate if the audio designer or even the audio system designer contributes to the art - it is a very interesting subject.

Yes it is an interesting subject. I incline toward Tao's view - the produced art of each is quite different - so much so that I'm wary of the equivocation on the term 'art'.

If we accept an absolute reference they can be considered as simple technicians that should reproduce a model. However, if they bring something new and personnel to the sound reproduction that brings the music closer to what recreates in us the emotion of listening to music they become part of the art our systems transmit.

I don't know if we can label a performance as a model. Yes, it is unique. The engineer only gets one shot - unlike what we often think of a 'model' that subsists and can be re-used, the performance exists in time.

If an engineer "bring(s) something new and personnel to the sound reproduction ... they become part of the art our systems transmit"' and if the new and personal is their skill as an engineer, yes, that can be an art form - engineers differ in their talent and results - I can accept that. If their intent is to become part of the performance, I'm wary. Maybe it's inevitable. Maybe the producer says "highlight the flute solo because that musician is talented and we want to showcase her" - is that congruent with the actual performance the audience experiences? How would we know? We might know if we hear what I call 'spotlighting' in other portions of the recording.

I don't think multi-mic-ing is inherently bad. But when a performance is desconstructed into microphone tracks and then rebuilt, I wonder if that takes it closer or farther from what the audience heard. The producer may say, "well, we don't really care what the audience heard, we care what you (record buyer) hears." I"m guessing that several people take part in the rebuild, including the conductor and maybe soloists and other musicians. Almost everything the elder Horowitz did needed some fixing post-production.

 

IMO, there is no such thing as absolute perfect music. There is no such thing as an absolute perfect audio system, live performance, recording, or engineer, etc. We don't even have absolutely perfect hearing.

The very best we can hope for is what sounds exceptional to us as individuals at a given moment in time. Find, keep, experience, remember, and enjoy that. And enjoy the journey(s) in finding this finite absolute.

Time to enjoy some more music.

 

Millions of Bose wave radio owners will would agree, as well as thousands of audiophiles with great systems and audio scholars that studied the subject. The use of a live classical music reference is not better than the intrinsic feeling that people have of what is a good audio system just because they have permanent live experience with "natural" sound during their lives.

Focusing on a particular technique or reference for evaluation creates preferences, not universal standards.

There is only one possible universal standard for music...the real thing... All else is subjective gobbledy gook. I also did not say only live classical music, live jazz, big bands, marching bands, solo instruments etc. apply...

BTW, most audiophiles don't have great sounding systems, which is why most non-audiophiles "don't get" why we waste time/money on this hobby. However, when one that really sounds GOOD and realistic is presented to a non-audiophile then I have seen them "light up" and go WOW and they start to understand what it is about...most non-audiophiles never get that exposure even when they have audiophile friends.

Truth is that a whole bunch of very expensive systems sound WORSE than a cheapish Bose system because Bose probably did a bit of psychoacoustic modelling to hide where their design is weak and most audiophile systems sound very synthetic, analytical and/or somewhat unpleasant and declared as "accurate to the source".

 

Sorry, considering this is not a wizardry or divination forum, discussing your guesses is not interesting at all for me. And fortunately I have more motivating things to discuss with people I meet at live performances.



You are just confirming what I said before several times about groups sharing the same preferences when you refer to "my audiophile circles". Narrowing the sample to those who agree with us does not bring anything new to debate.

No, they converged coming all from originally very different directions (planars with big SS, box speakers with Big SS or PP tubes etc.) with time and exposure to live and then to systems that we agreed sounded more like live (eg. Living Voice/Kondo in Munich, occasionally old WE/ Silbatone systems, other horn or partial horn systems with SET or very good PP tubes etc.).

 

It is no standard and changes whichever way the wind blows. It is fine if that is all you care about and there are millions of Bose wave radio owners who would agree with you ( I know my Dad said something similar when he bought one a long time ago). Sounding like live has not much to do with anything you listed. Have you ever mistook a recording played back through a PA for live? Have you ever heard live from blocks away and just KNEW it was live even without seeing or even just barely hearing it? It is not about sonic impressions it is hard wired in your senses. Doesn’t matter how loud, how quiet, how clear , sited or not. A rabbit hole ? The real rabbit hole is “ sounds good” because guys I knew like this changed gear like their underwear because that standard changed daily.

I willl not address the specifics in your elitist, self serving, insulting post because they are all totally inaccurate. You have absolutely no idea who I am and my 40 plus years of being a serious audio hobbyist. You are reminiscent of Mola Mola, Ethan Winer and others that were eventually banned from posting on this forum.

It's very unfortunate that you cannot have a civil / respectful conversation that provides different perspectives on a subjective topic without making disparaging comments to those who disagree with you. I have encountered numerous dealers and others such as yourself in the past and your "my way or the highway" attitude is one reason why "hi end" audio is dying except for an ever decreasing segment of the audio hobbyist.

You should apologize to me but I doubt that you will. Shame on you. Go find someone else to kick.

 

I willl not address the specifics in your elitist, self serving, insulting post because they are all totally inaccurate. You have absolutely no idea who I am and my 40 plus years of being a serious audio hobbyist. You are reminiscent of Mola Mola, Ethan Winer and others that were eventually banned from posting on this forum.

It's very unfortunate that you cannot have a civil / respectful conversation that provides different perspectives on a subjective topic without making disparaging comments to those who disagree with you. I have encountered numerous dealers and others such as yourself in the past and your "my way or the highway" attitude is one reason why "hi end" audio is dying except for an ever decreasing segment of the audio hobbyist.

You should apologize to me but I doubt that you will. Shame on you. Go find someone else to kick.

I have not been disrespectful of you in any way...although it is typical of people like yourself who don't want to defend their ideas to start slinging mud (such as calling me elitist and self serving), which are both extremely disrespectful things to say to me. Please point out where I have attacked you in a personal way. I am not sure how you being a serious hobbyist for 40 years is gemane to the topic of discussion in any way other than you have listened to a lot of music. I still would not take advice from you on how to build a system because you have nothing really to offer for your 40 years other than "its good if you like it".

You think I should be banned for what exactly? That I said your standard was no standard? I didn't call you elitist, or self serving or any of the things you are now calling me. If you can't defend your position with logic then quietly go away but resorting now to insulting me and projecting your disrespect on to me is pretty disingenious. If you can attack my foundation with facts or at least good theories then I am all ears but if all you have is emotion and bluster, well I am not inclined to listen.

I have nothing to apologize to you about but based on your post you definitely now have something to apologize to me for but I could really care less if you do or not. FWIW, people have moaned about "high end dying" for at least 30 years...there is always a new crop attracted to it and it is always a small crop. What is probably killing high end is the price of gear that has accelerated into the stratosphere in the last 10-15 years and nothing to do with my "attitude".

 

You are such a trite, self righteous, arrogant human being in self denial and I simply won't waste any more of my time responding to you. Yes you obviously did insult me but it doesn't matter. You are too self absorbed to recognize that. There are too many folks like you on the audio planet and unfortunately, I tried to engage you in a respectful conversation. Oh well.

RE Aries Cerat. One of the gear manufacturers who has priced their gear in the stratosphere. Talk about pure hypocrisy and someone calling the kettle black.

 

You are such a trite, self righteous, arrogant human being in self denial and I simply won't waste any more of my time responding to you. Yes you obviously did insult me but it doesn't matter. You are too self absorbed to recognize that. There are too many folks like you on the audio planet and unfortunately, I tried to engage you in a respectful conversation. Oh well.

RE Aries Cerat. One of the gear manufacturers who has priced their gear in the stratosphere. Talk about pure hypocrisy and someone calling the kettle black.

Once again, I asked you for evidence of where I personally insulted you but no evidence is given. However, you sure did decide to heap on a few more insults . I have reread our entire exchage and there is not one personal attack in any of my posts. I guess if you consider my rejecting your positions as insults then I would say don't be such a snowflake! Again, all emotion and bluster.

We have a range of products and many are not so expensive by today's high end price stratosphere...some are.

 

Your responses confirm everything I have stated. Nuff said.

 

Your responses confirm everything I have stated. Nuff said.

As does yours. You didn’t like being challenged, you slung some mud, when pressed to give facts you run away...

 

IMO, there is no such thing as absolute perfect music. There is no such thing as an absolute perfect audio system, live performance, recording, or engineer, etc. We don't even have absolutely perfect hearing.

The very best we can hope for is what sounds exceptional to us as individuals at a given moment in time. Find, keep, experience, remember, and enjoy that. And enjoy the journey(s) in finding this finite absolute.

Time to enjoy some more music.

Audire, well stated. On this thread, you, Microstrip and others have essentially stated similar opinions that are consistent with mine. Also, in reviewing other Aries Cerat threads, I see that Mr. M and Mike L. have had similar disagreements. I believe Mr. M called him an "audio god" and "Mohammed". Sound familiar? See a pattern? This clearly underscores the issues that I have tried to raise and why I refuse to engage in specifics with Mr. M. It doesn't matter and is a waste of time.

By the way and to answer the question posed by the OP , I believe a good, well designed stereo system can be more enjoyable, in the long term, than live performances. Have attended numerous concerts at the Grand Teton Music Festival and depending on the seat, it was thrilling, mediocre, or boring.

 

Audire, well stated. On this thread, you, Microstrip and others have essentially stated similar opinions that are consistent with mine. Also, in reviewing other Aries Cerat threads, I see that Mr. M and Mike L. have had similar disagreements. I believe Mr. M called him an "audio god" and "Mohammed". Sound familiar? See a pattern? This clearly underscores the issues that I have tried to raise and why I refuse to engage in specifics with Mr. M. It doesn't matter and is a waste of time.

By the way and to answer the question posed by the OP , I believe a good, well designed stereo system can be more enjoyable, in the long term, than live performances. Have attended numerous concerts at the Grand Teton Music Festival and depending on the seat, it was thrilling, mediocre, or boring.

Yes, I guess it is horrible to call someone an audio god...you should be so lucky...all you got from me was snowflake... There is no pattern other than your own imagined insults...and the real ones you hurled at me. I guess 40 years in the audio hobby taught you that you don’t have to defend your ideas just to whine when someone disagrees...

One final time, the point is not about enjoyment or what you like better per se, it is about capturing a sense of realism in playback. Playback can sound thrilling, mediocre or boring too...that’s not the point!

 

Isn't there a forum "Cage Fight" section where all this cat scratching can go?