The pros and cons of manufacturer/dealer/designer participation

[bonzo75]

To his great credit (although I agree in advance that it should not be such a rare professional reviewer attribute) Michael Fremer is not unwilling to publish a significantly negative review.

Fremer publishes negatives in comparison in follow ups or in articles of competing products. It is fairly easy to make out what he prefers and doesn't.

 

[Folsom]

Some things that get negative reviews simply go away... we forget that at times, as we see positive after positive. I like how some reviewers give a 1-5 or 1-10 rating to a slew of attributes because that means they give credit due where they can. Also thank you 6moon reviewers that try multiple speakers/amps/stereos with a given component to see how it fares here and there.

 

[bonzo75]

This was significantly negative https://www.analogplanet.com/content/grand-prix-audio-monaco-direct-drive-turntable-page-4

 

[NorthStar]

Speaking of Michael Fremer, he visited WBF on two occasions and left soon afterwards.
He met resistance with audio critics ...

But it's not just Michael Fremer, it's hundreds more.

 

[bonzo75]

This is from a reviewer https://www.audionirvana.org/forum/...recommended-components-list?p=97483#post97483

 

[NorthStar]

This is in regards to Magico Q5 reviewed by Michael ...
• https://www.stereophile.com/content/magico-has-fremer-and-sterophiles-number-high-end-ground-gone-1

? https://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/magico_q5_loudspeaker/index.html

 

[ddk]

Hi Peter,

The situation you brought up about your interaction with an individual in the industry is no different from visiting another member’s system and that person not accepting criticism. They can have a negative reaction to your candid comments even if they asked for an honest opinion. Some people’s demeanor completely changes if don’t praise their pride and joy, what do you then? How comfortable are you posting an all around negative experience with that member or sharing what you really thought of their system? Your dilemma isn’t limited to trade members but to everyone who’s on WBF!

david

A comment came up in another thread in which the author suggested that manufacturers can benefit from user feedback about various products from discussions on forum threads. I can understand how this would happen, but it is not always that simple. I responded with this post:

I have auditioned products both in my own system and systems belonging to friends. I have then contacted the designer/dealer/manufacturer who was not always very appreciative of the negative feedback telling me that it would not be fair to him if I described my experience with his product on a public forum.

Given these responses, I now hesitate to provide such feedback on public forums. I provided all feedback in private. The result is that the forum reading public never gets to read the negative comments, especially if the designer is an active member of the forum. I have learned to be less candid than I would otherwise be because of this. There are also not so subtle warnings on posts that negative comments can hurt the livelihood of the designer, etc. etc. All of this stifles open and honest (candid) discussion. (IMHO)

I guess this is the trade-off for having manufacturers/designers/dealers participate in the discussions. Their contributions can be very insightful, but perhaps their participation stifles the sharing of candid opinions if those opinions are somewhat less than positive.

A member responded to me with this post, but rather than respond to him again and take that thread further off topic, I opened a new thread to share opinions about this topic.



I wish it were that simple. I'm not talking about violent bashing or meaningless comments, but rather honest, open user feedback submitted behind the scenes directly to the designer/manufacturer/dealer. Some products are routinely slammed on WBF as long as their designers are not active participants. Products designed or represented by members, are treated differently, perhaps more kindly. This is understandable, given that we all want to get along, but does this benefit the reader?

Given this environment, I do not feel comfortable sharing my negative experiences with particular products on this forum because the parties involved are members, just like I am. I simply brought this subject up in response to a designer's recent comment that user feedback from forum discussions can be helpful to the designer. I see this, but my point is that not all user feedback is shared on the forum, particularly if it is negative, because of potential consequences to both the user and the designer, especially if they are both active participants on the forum.

I am now less than completely candid with some of my own experiences given the reaction I received behind the scenes. Basically, I was the "only one" to not think this product was fantastic, etc. etc. (Of course, so were my audio buddies who heard the same things I heard). Or the product was not fully broken in, or not set up right.

Is it a matter of preferences or "system synergy"? It certainly can be, but why dismiss it as such? It might also be something inherent in the product, especially if it was experienced by the same listeners in different systems or by different listeners in the same system. My private contact with the manufacturer/designer/dealer with helpful user feedback became more a criticism of me and my testing methodology or my taste, rather than what the product was actually doing in the various systems.

So I ask, have we really created an environment for open and honest discussions of audio products when I get these reactions to private communications? Image the response if I commented publicly. Perhaps the answer is that it is not perfect, but it is the best that we can do because we want industry representation on the forum. That is fine, and I get that, but the audiophile is not really presented with "the rest of the story" for a more balanced perspective.

This is a bit like discussions about professional reviews and the interests of the readers versus the advertisers. I hope this topic is not too controversial to discuss here.

 

[bonzo75]

I agree. I can't post much negative stuff because then no one will invite me to their place. I am like an addict and if people don't feed me with compares on a regular basis I will combust and explode

But Peters question is slightly different. If he wanted to post negative feedback, others will discourage him. I don't see why that should happen

 

[christoph]

This is from a reviewer https://www.audionirvana.org/forum/...recommended-components-list?p=97483#post97483

Nice read, thanks

 

[Tango]

I agree. I can't post much negative stuff because then no one will invite me to their place. I am like an addict and if people don't feed me with compares on a regular basis I will combust and explode

Nobody invited you Ked. You just forced yourself through their doors.

Everyone is holding up negatives. You can create a whatapp group chat for squirting on products and behind the scene dirts..a place to let steam out.

 

[howiebrou]

I am all for negative reviews in audio. We get negative reviews all the time in movie reviews, book reviews and car reviews.

Right now there are just too many positive reviews. In fact I read a lot of reviews now just to get the specs and price because you know the last paragraph is going to to say 'highly recommended' or 'best buy'. Why do they think I don't want to know if, in their opinion, they think something is rubbish? It won't stop me from auditioning it at all and I am can assess the review and reviewer without any censoring thank you very much.

We need a Jeremy Clarkson of the Audio World imo.

 

[howiebrou]

Nobody invited you Ked. You just forced yourself through their doors.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Nobody invited you Ked. You just forced yourself through their doors.

Everyone is holding up negatives. You can create a whatapp group chat for squirting on products and behind the scene dirts..a place to let steam out.

THE MUST VIEW Samsung video of 2020, Ke-rad spills all the sequins and squirts all the dirt, there’s just no more happy endings in Horn Porn 2 - the sharknado of sound system compares!!

Coming soon to the dark web near you.

 

[tima]

As is typical, this thread swung away from the original topic of manufacturer/designer/dealer (MDD) participation in these forums.

Peter was concerned about actual and possible public and private negattive reaction to himself from MDDs in the face of "open and honest" critique of products. This causes him to be "less than completely candid" in relaying his experiences. He asks "have we really created an environment for open and honest discussions of audio products"?

WBF is an open public forum. As such it does serve as a sales and marketing venue for MDDs. Some times that is quite overt, particularly when combined with flashing advertisements on every page, some of which belong to participant MDDs. The pitches are not limited to the respective subforums dedicated to particular products; they show up anywhere. Some MDDs will jump in with comments anytime their product is mentioned. Sometimes the sales and marketing come not directly from them but from discussions and reactions to successful products, or products with active adherents. Yes, there's a point where it becomes excessive and gets annoying like any commercial played over and over.

Direct detailed product criticism is fairly infrequent but occasionally intense. Some of it is quick pot shots. Sometimes it comes in the form of comments made in defense of a competitor's product. I think its fair to say the majority of participants don't take well to criticism of products they own, partly because a lot of this stuff is crazy expensive, partly because one's choices become associated with one's identity as an audiophile here and elsewhere - like it or not. A few well-heeled participants aren't bothered by any of that because they own three or four of many gears and can more easily replace equipment that falls out of fashion.

Of course MDDs generally react poorly to public criticism of their products. Why would you think they wouldn't? Stand up in some public venue and tell a mother her child sucks at this or that and what do you expect as a reaction? Regardless of whether the criticism is meant as "open and honest." Any rational critic should/would realize this before they speak.

That a reaction turns personal toward the critic is not unusual - it should not be taken as a surprise - the recipient is no less likely to feel an attack on their product is an attack on them than an owner would While many (most) want to present a righteous front - "I am open to fair and honest criticism" - it can still hurt. It's only human nature.

Some like to say "it's all a matter of personal preference, we all have different experiences" etc. etc. We can all have our own experiences but we all hear with our ears, human hearing hasn't changed much in a thousand years. It's obvious to me if not to you that some products are better than others. What's interesting is the desire to point this out in specific instances. How come? Who cares - absent that and those differences this place wouldn't exist.

But this isn't Plato's Republic. Generally I find intentions are good, or at least not bad. If you're going to criticize, okay fine, but think before you speak and understand your motives, recognize possible reactions. Weigh the value of your burning need to criticize honestly and openly (or snark) against how'll you'll feel if it isn't taken well. For gawds sake, know what you're talking about. The vast majority here are reasonable and will separate wheat from chaff.

If there's a problem I haven't heard it clearly formulated. The discussion is fine. But there is no solution or resolution. We're not going to (or at least we shouldn't) change who we are or invent some rules that adjudicate some new way of being.

Reviewers? Always an easy target.

 

[Al M.]

I am all for negative reviews in audio. We get negative reviews all the time in movie reviews, book reviews and car reviews.

Right now there are just too many positive reviews.

I tend to agree with you. Yet there has to be a lot of caution. Things indeed can be system dependent, something that to his great credit Francisco (microstrip) never tires to point out. A fellow audiophile tested preamps in his system. One that seemed to be promising had some issues with tonality that went away when he switched from a well regarded interconnect with high capacitance to a more 'regular' one. He ended up preferring that preamp. What if he had not switched cables? This is just one example.

Movie, book and car reviews are easier. Those are all stand alone items. Yet the performance of components inserted into a system really can be system dependent, sometimes strongly so.

 

[howiebrou]

I tend to agree with you. Yet there has to be a lot of caution. Things indeed can be system dependent, something that to his great credit Francisco (microstrip) never tires to point out. A fellow audiophile tested preamps in his system. One that seemed to be promising had some issues with tonality that went away when he switched from a well regarded interconnect with high capacitance to a more 'regular' one. He ended up preferring that preamp. What if he had not switched cables? This is just one example.

Movie, book and car reviews are easier. Those are all stand alone items. Yet the performance of components inserted into a system really can be system dependent, sometimes strongly so.

I fully agree that audio reviews are system dependent. I auditioned what I am sure are great components before setling on what I have. It worked in my system and that's good enough for me. But I don't think reviews of other products are free from such effects. A book review depends so much on the reviewer's viewpoints, upbringing, culture, prejudices and simple preferences. So do movie reviews which is why I take them with a pinch of salt. I also always find it hilarious that people choose restaurants to visit based on reviews. The chasm between what I like and the next guy could not be bigger. If anything, in audio I think most of us are looking for a variation on a theme with a small standard deviation compared to most things in life.

 

[microstrip]

He was critical of the Kuzma CAR-60. But that is not the review I was thinking of. I will try to remember the significantly negative review I was recalling.

And later published a followup admitting that it was not a fair review ...

"When I compared the recordings I was satisfied that my original observations of both cartridges were accurate, though i admitted to having injected into the review too much of my own preferences and not sufficient objectivity. "

https://www.analogplanet.com/content/which-10000-cartridge-do-you-prefer

The main question no one is addressing is what are equipment characteristics should be present to deserve a negative review. Objective data, poor built quality or poor components? Not being able to sound "natural" or "real"?

 

[microstrip]

Hi Peter,

The situation you brought up about your interaction with an individual in the industry is no different from visiting another member’s system and that person not accepting criticism. They can have a negative reaction to your candid comments even if they asked for an honest opinion. Some people’s demeanor completely changes if don’t praise their pride and joy, what do you then? How comfortable are you posting an all around negative experience with that member or sharing what you really thought of their system? Your dilemma isn’t limited to trade members but to everyone who’s on WBF!

david

David,

IMHO there are no negative candid comments on other people high-end systems mainly because we are not just commenting on equipment or room, but mainly on how people connect with the system and music. Stereo is an illusion created by a few data points and our experience, when you tell another person that his system has problems you are also telling that something is not right in the way he listens to music. And surely people do not appreciate it ...

I react badly to the tipycal advice advice on "how to become a better listener" because they are most of the time just advice on training to educate preferences . But I praise expositions and discussion of methods to create systems when the objectives are clearly explained, as fortunately happens most of the time in WBF, where we know our industry experts and their preferences since long.

 

[bonzo75]

One of the things with reviews is are you the kind of guy that rates the last man standing, or are you polyamorous.


Some people by nature will like CJ, AR, VTL, all three. Some might just want to rate one of those automatically dumping the other two.

 

[spiritofmusic]

So, is this how ctiticisms of WBF sponsors' products are gonna have to be caveated, to avoid the ire of those who feel they've been slighted?
...
"I tried cable A from WBF sponsor Y versus another cable B from WBF sponsor Z, and found that A outperformed B, "IN MY SPECIFIC SYSTEM, TO MY SPECIFIC LISTENING PREFERENCES, IN THIS SPECIFIC ROOM..." allowing all sorts of caveats, and even then expecting a likely tirade from that "criticised" WBF sponsor?

I guess I can understand how this would be a default, noone wants to put any individual or company down. It's just a more acute courtesy and diplomacy issue w so many industry guys weaving their comments and input amongst us.