KeithR's "Dream Speaker" Search

[Ron Resnick]

Because most audiophiles buy the gear first not having thought through what music, recordings, etc they want to play. Even after years of purchase they don't know well music and recordings in their own genre. And gear purchases are often done on impulse

I don't know if this makes any sense. What prospective, system-shopping audiophile does not bring some favorite music to listen to during speaker auditions at a hi-fi store?

After listening to music "for years" they don't know well music or recordings in their own genre?

How does this apply to rock, pop or electronica?

 

[bonzo75]

I don't know if this makes any sense. What prospective, system-shopping audiophile does not bring some favorite music to listen to during speaker auditions at a hi-fi store?

There are many who buy on what the dealer plays them on the system. Very few buyers are as anal as active members of the forums you frequent.

And many who do use their own music, have the music chosen by their existing system, and that's the not necessarily the music they would have ended up listening to if they had never got a system in the first place

 

[bonzo75]

This view I think makes sense for your reproduction philosophy which, if I understand you correctly, focuses on coherence and not on height and scale. But I disagree. My ears don't hear it working this way in real life -- comparing what I hear in live music to what I hear from different stereo loudspeaker systems.

I don't hear a full classical symphony orchestra playing Pictures at an Exhibition coming out of a Zu Definition IV as convincingly as I hear it coming out of a YG XV or a Rockport Arrakis. I would like to hear the upcoming Zu Dominance.

I believe strongly that musical genre preference substantially drives loudspeaker preference. If we narrow the musical genre preference to jazz I actually think that a lot of individual subjective preferences would coalesce around a plurality view that horns/SET is the most convincing way to reproduce jazz music.

I personally believe that there is something about the way horn loudspeakers reproduce the sounds of brass instruments which is consonant with the way brass instruments themselves produce their sounds. If people who have experience listening to a lot of different types of loudspeakers hear jazz reproduced by horns/SET I think there would be statistically significant agreement.

If someone’s musical genre preference were mainly rock, or if someone’s musical genre preferences were equally divided among the main genres of music, I would not select for that person a horn/SET system.

For rock and thunderous symphonic classical music I like to have a lot of cone driver surface to move air. I think a large-sized or maybe a medium-sized dynamic driver system is a general purpose or all purpose loudspeaker system.

Conversely a large, four column dynamic driver system might not reproduce small-scale music -- solo vocalists with acoustic accompaniment or solo instrument musicians or small ensembles -- as convincingly as a smaller loudspeaker system might.

I think electrostatic and ribbon drivers reproduce particularly convincingly the sound of the human voice. Consequently I personally like best electrostatic and ribbon driver planar speakers. (I also like their "open" sound.)

Sorry, I disagree with you on the rock part. This dual woofer FLH is the best rock I have heard along with the led zep at Mike's, and this is better than Henk's grands on under 5 watts as below

Plus, you can further extend it to 15 Hz or so horn loaded

 

[Ron Resnick]

Sorry, I disagree with you on the rock part. This dual woofer FLH is the best rock I have heard along with the led zep at Mike's

. . .

I agree Mike's system is great on rock. I did not intend to suggest that rock can sound good only on dynamic driver speakers.

Rock also sounds great on the PBN M2!5 Jeff Tyo Special Edition, another design with a dual woofer and a wide-band horn in the middle.

 

[bonzo75]

Yes but I don't see the point of going past this horn for rock


If you have a smaller room and budget get tannoy monitor 15 inch gold

 

[the sound of Tao]

This all makes sense.

But (other than a college student in a dorm room) why would one have a speaker which doesn’t play at all well a genre one loves?

I’d imagine mostly we don’t choose a speaker that clearly can’t play our preferences but sometimes it’s a subtle failing that won’t be immediately obvious, so a speaker might be competent but not great at a genre and so the speaker’s genre strengths shapes the playlist.

Can be also that the audition is as Ked says dominated by music cherry picked to showcase the gear. We can get won over by a particularly memorable moment and fall for a bit of gear that later reveals it’s less brilliant qualities.

Also I knew a classic gear swapper who bounced in the sonic extremes from gear to gear. He loved rough blues and rock but bought a pair of push pull mono valves (Macintosh 2301) ran them with Sonus Faber then went Soulution and Wilson Benesch with subs then went Maggies with Magtech and then Aries Cerat SET and horn and I’ll be honest the music he loved was never influential in what gear he bought, he just loved the wild change of presentation from setup to setup each time he bought new gear.

Also some genres are hard to get gear that will play convincingly play that music and then also do other types like a clash of the genres eg Marc (@spirit) with prog rock and jazz as well as a growing interest in classical and has been at times conflicted by his desire to try horns but logically unsure where that will leave prog.

Some speakers are truly convincing across the board but not a lot, sure plenty tick the boxes but not many are absolutely great at all types. Some of us go more than one system which allows you to specialise a bit if you love a diversity of music and genres. There’s mostly a compromise going on somewhere as much as most of us don’t like to have to compromise at all in our gear. Nirvana doesn’t involve compromise surely

 

[bonzo75]

"I’ll be honest the music he loved was never influential in what gear he bought, he just loved the wild change of presentation from setup to setup each time he bought new gear."


This is so true. Many people I visit share the above philosophy. Some others are dictated by a design philosophy, some by a stubborn I will stick to what I said 20 years ago Philosophy. An audiophile's music choice, his gear choice, his purchase decision, and his forum justification often have nothing to do with each other

 

[andromedaaudio]

I bought this today , just need to find a good speaker to play it on .

 

[the sound of Tao]

"I’ll be honest the music he loved was never influential in what gear he bought, he just loved the wild change of presentation from setup to setup each time he bought new gear."


This is so true. Many people I visit share the above philosophy. Some others are dictated by a design philosophy, some by a stubborn I will stick to what I said 20 years ago Philosophy. An audiophile's music choice, his gear choice, his purchase decision, and his forum justification often have nothing to do with each other

Lol very true, we like to think we are reasoned but we are creatures of desire. We do get into the pre purchase overthink mode and hence the anxiety and audio neurosis as well as the adrenal thrill of the chase... then surfing the crest of the dopamine highs of first experience and the adrenal exhaustion from concern when something isn’t completely perfect... what chance does logic and reason truly have in our sport.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Difficult to tell where my musical tastes might have evolved had I bought any of the following spkrs that were on my radar prior to buying my original pr of Zus in 2008.

ML Prodigies, likely on MF KiloWatt monos.
Talon Firebirds, likely on Krells.
Rockport Antares, likely on Tenor hybrids.

I had good deals lined up on all those, but would still have needed a second mortgage, which is what I would have stretched to.

And then in 2012 as I was considering the new pr of Zus, I was seriously contemplating Hawthorne Audio Everests, utilising two 15" 'Augie' lower mids/bass drivers plus AMT Heil ribbon treble/upper mids driver (crossed to the Augies at 450Hz I believe), likely paired w Quicksilver tube amps.

Would I have adjusted way more easily to classical on Rockport, ML, Talon, Hawthorne AMT? Probably.

But I would have struggled to match the compelling presentation of prog, fusion, electric jazz and prog electronica, that the Zus excel on.

And now to be totally at peace listening to classical on those very Zus...

 

[the sound of Tao]

And then in 2012 as I was considering the new pr of Zus, I was seriously contemplating Hawthorne Audio Everests, utilising two 15" 'Augie' lower mids/bass drivers plus AMT Heil ribbon treble/upper mids driver (crossed to the Augies at 450Hz I believe), likely paired w Quicksilver tube amps.

Would I have adjusted way more easily to classical on Rockport, ML, Talon, Hawthorne AMT? Probably.

But I would have struggled to match the compelling presentation of prog, fusion, electric jazz and prog electronica, that the Zus excel on.

And now to be totally at peace listening to classical on those very Zus...

I’ve got two x pairs of Quicksilver GE8417 monos in my cupboard... without doubt one of the best sounding amps quicksilver made but unfortunately the GE8417s are nearly an extinct valve with no replacement and the amps had a scary habit of going into a lava lamp intense hybrid volcanic Chernobyl extinction event state and so scaring the life out of me, my significant other and much of our local bushfire brigade... you are welcome to both sets Marc of these wonderous sounding beasts if you want to resurrect them. PS think your NATs were a much better choice.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Graham, yes I had heard that. The Hawthorne Everests were really fascinating w their MTM Augie/AMT/Augie in OB configuration promising a pretty unique sound. They are no more, but I was *this* close to ordering them.

Chernobyl Mk2? Not so desirable.

Nats remarkably stable and well behaved, just the caveat of Utopia preamp chewing 6n23p tubes for breakfast.

 

[morricab]

I’d imagine mostly we don’t choose a speaker that clearly can’t play our preferences but sometimes it’s a subtle failing that won’t be immediately obvious, so a speaker might be competent but not great at a genre and so the speaker’s genre strengths shapes the playlist.

Can be also that the audition is as Ked says dominated by music cherry picked to showcase the gear. We can get won over by a particularly memorable moment and fall for a bit of gear that later reveals it’s less brilliant qualities.

Also I knew a classic gear swapper who bounced in the sonic extremes from gear to gear. He loved rough blues and rock but bought a pair of push pull mono valves (Macintosh 2301) ran them with Sonus Faber then went Soulution and Wilson Benesch with subs then went Maggies with Magtech and then Aries Cerat SET and horn and I’ll be honest the music he loved was never influential in what gear he bought, he just loved the wild change of presentation from setup to setup each time he bought new gear.

Also some genres are hard to get gear that will play convincingly play that music and then also do other types like a clash of the genres eg Marc (@spirit) with prog rock and jazz as well as a growing interest in classical and has been at times conflicted by his desire to try horns but logically unsure where that will leave prog.

Some speakers are truly convincing across the board but not a lot, sure plenty tick the boxes but not many are absolutely great at all types. Some of us go more than one system which allows you to specialise a bit if you love a diversity of music and genres. There’s mostly a compromise going on somewhere as much as most of us don’t like to have to compromise at all in our gear. Nirvana doesn’t involve compromise surely

Did you hear his AC system? He had Symphonia speakers as well or only AC electronics?

 

[the sound of Tao]

Did you hear his AC system? He had Symphonia speakers as well or only AC electronics?

Didn’t get to hear it unfortunately as he had moved south to another state by then, he had the Concero amp and was talking about getting Kassandra and AC horns as well but I believe he’s swapped out again since then. A mate and myself both thought the SET horns wasn’t an obvious direction given the kinds of gear he had and his longer term preference for more emphatic electronics over the more nuanced.

 

[213Cobra]

This view I think makes sense for your reproduction philosophy which, if I understand you correctly, focuses on coherence and not on height and scale. But I disagree. My ears don't hear it working this way in real life -- comparing what I hear in live music to what I hear from different stereo loudspeaker systems.

I don't hear a full classical symphony orchestra playing Pictures at an Exhibition coming out of a Zu Definition IV as convincingly as I hear it coming out of a YG XV or a Rockport Arrakis. I would like to hear the upcoming Zu Dominance.

I believe strongly that musical genre preference substantially drives loudspeaker preference. If we narrow the musical genre preference to jazz I actually think that a lot of individual subjective preferences would coalesce around a plurality view that horns/SET is the most convincing way to reproduce jazz music.

I personally believe that there is something about the way horn loudspeakers reproduce the sounds of brass instruments which is consonant with the way brass instruments themselves produce their sounds. If people who have experience listening to a lot of different types of loudspeakers hear jazz reproduced by horns/SET I think there would be statistically significant agreement.

If someone’s musical genre preference were mainly rock, or if someone’s musical genre preferences were equally divided among the main genres of music, I would not select for that person a horn/SET system.

For rock and thunderous symphonic classical music I like to have a lot of cone driver surface to move air. I think a large-sized or maybe a medium-sized dynamic driver system is a general purpose or all purpose loudspeaker system.

Conversely a large, four column dynamic driver system might not reproduce small-scale music -- solo vocalists with acoustic accompaniment or solo instrument musicians or small ensembles -- as convincingly as a smaller loudspeaker system might.

I think electrostatic and ribbon drivers reproduce particularly convincingly the sound of the human voice. Consequently I personally like best electrostatic and ribbon driver planar speakers. (I also like their "open" sound.)

Well, I do not know where you heard "Pictures at" on Zu Def4. It wasn't at my house. Next time you're over, let's play that. But more to the point, nothing is perfect and if one speaker plays something more convincingly to you than another but both are relatively convincing, then that's fine with me. For me, when I hear YG on symphony, that (IMO-poorly-chosen woof-mid) crossover point imposes a choke point in dynamics and resolution that kills the illusion. And if it takes 2000 watts to overcome that, I'm not in for it. To me the YG gets progressively less credible as music complexity under crescendo builds. Not that it's bad in the total speakers population sense, but it's not as good as it should be for its economics, in that respect. It is not a speaker that scales under reasonable amplification, in my view.

But let's be truly honest. No collection of hifi components arranged into a system can absolutely reproduce the real, corresponding event. We at best get to listen to a successful aural illusion. "High Fidelity" is an admission that it is not complete fidelity. It just tries to get close, and closer. So a speaker that can be convincing on all music without being completely real in any one, is preferable to a single-expertise speaker. I just know that if one were building a single-expertise full-symphonic speaker, it would look a lot more like a Zu Definition, physically and electrically, than like a YG. In the current distorted economics of our interest here, the YG isn't expensive enough or intensive enough in all-out execution to be absolutely state-of-the art (except maybe in dynamic drivers' frequency linearity, which is just one thing), but it's also not affordable enough to use market compromise as an excuse for its musical liabilities. Talking about whether a YG Hailey or a Zu Def4 is more convincing on orchestral music is a picayune worthless exercise. Most speakers can't do as well as either, and the things that make you prefer YG over Zu are generally unrelated to the things that make me prefer Zu over YG.

I think you misstate what you refer to as my reproduction philosophy. I value coherence over most other things. You could say I am a coherence-first system assembler. But not at the total expense of everything else. A Zu Definition is going to intentionally limit height because it is designed to limit floor and ceiling effects which are a much bigger problem in most domiciles than whether they can make Johnny Cash 8 feet tall. You can hear this plainly listening to same material on single-FRD Druids, which do not limit floor and ceiling effects, and Definitions, which do. On the other hand, the Definitions have much better scale in width than their single driver brothers, and I definitely find scale in width vastly more important to convincing symphonic reproduction than height, which is going to be limited by most rooms anyway. Keith's room and my main room are similar in size and both are part of open plan houses. I don't hear YGs play anything familiar any "taller" than my Def4s.

Of a few major spokes of concern among audiophiles my critical evaluations start with coherence, then authentic tone, dynamic scale, minimally-authentic bandwidth, spatial scale in that order. I don't obsess too much over depth because you always get some and most of it in recorded music is artificial and exaggerated. What audiophiles chase in perceived depth is just not equally present in live music.

I'm musically omnivorous. I've had electrostats, point-source monitors, dynamic columnar, crossover-intensive, simple 2-way, FRD-based crossoverless, non-ESL planar speakers. And while I have chosen not to own any horns, I've listened to plenty. As Sean Casey says, "horns are for theaters, and maybe very big houses..." You can't get far enough away from them to cohere. In all those speaker types I've owned and lived with, none ever affected what a play in music. Quad ESL had to play Pink Floyd, Traffic, Led Zep and The Band; LS3/5a had to play 1812 Overture. The hifi exists to serve the music; the music isn't subordinate to the hifi.

Phil

 

[213Cobra]

I don't know if this makes any sense. What prospective, system-shopping audiophile does not bring some favorite music to listen to during speaker auditions at a hi-fi store?

After listening to music "for years" they don't know well music or recordings in their own genre?

How does this apply to rock, pop or electronica?

I always made it a point to not bring my music to auditions of equipment new to me in rooms new to me. Whatever is on hand is fine. A speaker maker once told me he was astounded that most of his customers only had 10-20 albums. He couldn't identify with it. If you're that kind of person, sure take your own music. But if you're not, see how a system or component handles the unknown, or just the less familiar.

Phil

 

[the sound of Tao]

I always made it a point to not bring my music to auditions of equipment new to me in rooms new to me. Whatever is on hand is fine. A speaker maker once told me he was astounded that most of his customers only had 10-20 albums. He couldn't identify with it. If you're that kind of person, sure take your own music. But if you're not, see how a system or component handles the unknown, or just the less familiar.

Phil

Was that Sean Casey

 

[213Cobra]

Was that Sean Casey

It was another, larger high end maker. -Phil

 

[the sound of Tao]

It was another, larger high end maker. -Phil

So that tends to rule out a horn designer then... realistically though, a larger scale manufacturer and most of his customers have only 10 to 20 albums. Not sure I’m buying into that figure. I don’t think I know anyone with that little music let alone an audiophile.

 

[213Cobra]

So that tends to rule out a horn designer then... realistically though, a larger scale manufacturer and most of his customers have only 10 to 20 albums. Not sure I’m buying into that figure. I don’t think I know anyone with that little music let alone an audiophile.

Well, you know, I don't either. Zu is quite small. "Larger-scale" manufacturers in this tiny corner of business are not very big anymore. Nothing is like when Dynaco sold 1 million A25s. But the figure came from him, informed by his own and his customer service people's conversations with customers. But I will say that the intersection between audiophiles and musicophiles is overall a small overlap.

Phil