State-of-the-Art Digital

Thank you. As much as my piano teacher would be dismayed by how much i remember...I did study for 12 years and often reference the sound of the keyboard when i audition equipment in my system at home. Anything that thins it out (often happens) or warbles the tonal qualities is out...just plain out. I cannot live with more detail, more decay...if that middle C does not sound right and have the right 'action' and impact of a real piano...it has literally driven me crazy at 2am when changing isolation at around 9pm and realized i'd f---d it all up...finally got it sounding right around 3a again.

That does not mean my sense of sound is any more right than anyone else's...but I do find more merit in certain advice than others (for me). I have often relied on a handful of names over the years...in the publishing industry Martin Colloms and Roy Gregory have been sages for many years and kindly looked after me personally with their valuable time and advice. So too Marc Michelson, Jeff Fritz and Robert Harley. On the professional side, I have had the opportunity to speak with people at Transparent Audio, DCS, Wilson, Boulder, CJ, Rockport, Zanden, Stillpoints, Tripoint, PS Audio. And on the musical side, a few professional musicians and recording studio professionals who have kindly given of their time. It always helps me to ask and listen...and then come to my own conclusions.
 
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Thank you. As much as my piano teacher would be dismayed by how much i remember...I did study for 12 years and often reference the sound of the keyboard when i audition equipment in my system at home. Anything that thins it out (often happens) or warbles the tonal qualities is out...just plain out. I cannot live with more detail, more decay...if that middle C does not sound right and have the right 'action' and impact of a real piano...it has literally driven me crazy at 2am when changing isolation at around 9pm and realized i'd f---d it all up...finally got it sounding right around 3a again.

That does not mean my sense of sound is any more right than anyone else's...but I do find more merit in certain advice than others (for me). I have often relied on a handful of names over the years...in the publishing industry Martin Colloms and Roy Gregory have been sages for many years and kindly looked after me personally with their valuable time and advice. So too Marc Michelson, Jeff Fritz and Robert Harley. On the professional side, I have had the opportunity to speak with people at Transparent Audio, DCS, Wilson, Boulder, CJ, Rockport, Zanden, Stillpoints, Tripoint, PS Audio. And on the musical side, a few professional musicians and recording studio professionals who have kindly given of their time. It always helps me to ask and listen...and then come to my own conclusions.

One had better find ways to make up one's own mind, especially considering I'm observing a tendency among audiophiles (or wine lovers - humans, for that matter) to defend their buying decisions, right or wrong. It seems everyone has their agenda, which is what strikes me most browsing through a thread like this. I was clearly blowing off steam, rather than to try and convince anyone that I know better. I don't.

That's a cool list of IDB people (not sure if that's just an anglicism or real English: referring to "in the business") you're mentioning there. They have their agenda, too, which I find most appropriate when they're laying it open to whomever they consider prospective customers (= everyone).

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
 
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(...) It's no mystery to me why some in this thread find it hard to integrate e.g. the DACs of a certain British manufacturer into certain systems: gear conceived, designed and built with a studio mindset will not, for all the reasons mentioned above, compensate for any flaws elsewhere in a system (for example: using them as source makes it even easier for me to hear the midrange drivers of a loudspeaker brand they're often demoed with are connected in inverted polarity in most if not all models I've heard). Taking that path can lead to frustration.

Or, in a best-case scenario, goosebumps and that elusive "you are there" feeling. I remember hearing Keith Jarrett's Köln Concert and Vladimir Horowitz's Return to Carnegie where I ended up lying in bed awake tingling all over, with the experience engraved in my memory as if I'd attended those concerts in real life. Priceless. Literally. (...)

Great post. But I can assure you that when we manage to make them integrate it is a real "you are there" and "inside the music" feeling.

A few months ago I got the visit of a friend who loves music more than audio and he suddenly asked me to listen to Köln Concert. It was sounding so real and frightening that we sit listening to the whole CD. He referred to it as a religious experience. Unfortunately he came again a few weeks ago in a day I was carrying experiences with little success trying an amplifier that embellishes the sound. He was extremely disappointed with the sound and music and I felt guilty of not being able to propitiate him another good experience.
 
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Great post. But I can assure you that when we manage to make them integrate it is a real "you are there" and inside the music feeling.

Indeed. That's what I tried to say. I may not have been very clear.

A few months ago I got the visit of a friend who loves music more than audio and he suddenly he asked me to listen to Köln Concert. It was sounding so real and frightening that we sit listening to the whole CD. He referred to it as a religious experience. Unfortunately he came again a few weeks ago in a day I was carrying experiences with little success trying an amplifier that embellishes the sound He was extremely disappointed with the sound and I felt guilty of not being able to propitiate him another good experience.

I see you have a Vivaldi stack 2.0 - be sure to get a copy of the Tower Records SACD or the Japanese DSD64 download of the Köln Concert as it contains a new DSD remastering. If the latter, be sure to enable the Upsampler's DSD Pass Through function to play it back natively - I'm surprised every time I hear DSD upsampled to DXD or DSD128 (which sounds converted to DXD and remodulated to DSD to me, i.e. worse).

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
 
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(...) I see you have a Vivaldi stack 2.0 - be sure to get a copy of the Tower Records SACD or the Japanese DSD64 download of the Köln Concert as it contains a new DSD remastering. If the latter, be sure to enable the Upsampler's DSD Pass Through function to play it back natively - I'm surprised every time I hear DSD upsampled to DXD or DSD128 (which sounds converted to DXD and remodulated to DSD to me, i.e. worse).

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

Thanks. How can we get them in Europe? Japanese DSD64 downloads seem to be available only for japanese residents. I also prefer DSD or DSD128 going as DSD or DSD128 respectively through the upsampler.
 
Thanks. How can we get them in Europe? Japanese DSD64 downloads seem to be available only for japanese residents.

That I don't know. I'm relying on more computer-savvy people to figure that out - apparently all one needs is a proxy and a really old but still active credit card, LOL!

Needless to say, ordering the SACD hard copy might be preferable - and easier.

Be sure to engage the Pass Through function and not just use DSD In = Out. I'm noticing the same with PCM Clone Mode - in order to get the Upsampler to pass through the signal natively (e.g. DXD), those buttons need to be engaged.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
 
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Interesting read, this whole thread, in which I would not like the above to go unnoticed (it kind of did, or at least it seemed so to me reading on).

In my humble opinion, 99% of all those audiophiles who claim they want the truth couldn't live with it if they got it. To me, this fundamentally calls into question the meaning of the term "state of the art".

I used to build loudspeakers with time alignment, with phase-coherent filters of my own design. So my mindset is pretty much the same as that of a recording engineer (there are great interviews online by the likes of Bert van der Wolf, Morten Lindberg and others). The gear one builds, same as the recordings one makes are not supposed to compensate for flaws elsewhere in the system or the recording/mastering chain. Guess what brand people with this mindset tend to use.

Now, I'm not saying one should exclusively play back clap tests on the DAC one intends to audition. On the contrary, unless one is a classical music buff like me, comparing dozens of recordings of the same Opera, Symphony, Piano or Violin Sonata or Concerto etc., where one wants to be able to differentiate between e.g. an early or late Stradivari or other make of violin, and more importantly, all the subtleties of a soloist's playing not just in audiophile, but also historical recordings, the so-called truth is elusive, if not an illusion. More to the point: it may not even be a legitimate goal.

Audiophiles who primarily listen to Pop, Rock, electronically produced music, studio productions or live recordings using anything from microphone arrays to amplified instruments and voices, had better do as the musicians do: it's a mere matter of getting the sound one likes. No use obsessing over what's "natural".

Having said that, given the price category that "state of the art" inevitably seems to imply, I sometimes wish audiophiles would at least include some natural recordings of human voices, real instruments, if not sounds of nature, in their playlists, preferably in the form of phase-coherent one-point recordings, before making a buying decision.

Not long ago, I attended a "shootout" (who ever came up with the idea of using that term in this context?!) of two pricey DACs: one from - depending upon whom one asks - a Greek or Turkish island, the other from a former Eastern-bloc country, i.e. neither brands that either of the afore-mentioned recording engineers would consider using in the studio, but that one would expect to provide a satisfying listening experience, where the last song used for comparison was Jon Hopkins "Abandon Window" from his album Immunity, no doubt a multi-track studio recording that has little to do with what I'd use to base buying decisions on, but still, the closest to a natural sound on any of the track list was some rain and lightning in the background that one of the two DACs reduced to electronic crackling reminiscent of the resolution of a first-generation CD player from the eighties - I've heard white noise from an FFT analyzer that sounded more like rain drops falling. That same DAC, deemed by at least one listener to be the more "dynamic-sounding" of the two, suffered from digital artifacts that made it sound aggressive. Why am I relating this? It reminded me of something else audiophiles tend to underestimate in my opinion: listening fatigue, which one won't notice playing half a track here, skip to a portion of another track there. There's a huge difference when one is a classical buff like me and listens to, as I've done with a friend, Wagner's Ring in one legendary recording, takes a nap or makes sandwiches and gets a nice bottle from the cellar, then listens to another Ring (to the uninitiated: I just described the activity of a whole weekend).

It's no mystery to me why some in this thread find it hard to integrate e.g. the DACs of a certain British manufacturer into certain systems: gear conceived, designed and built with a studio mindset will not, for all the reasons mentioned above, compensate for any flaws elsewhere in a system (for example: using them as source makes it even easier for me to hear the midrange drivers of a loudspeaker brand they're often demoed with are connected in inverted polarity in most if not all models I've heard). Taking that path can lead to frustration.

Or, in a best-case scenario, goosebumps and that elusive "you are there" feeling. I remember hearing Keith Jarrett's Köln Concert and Vladimir Horowitz's Return to Carnegie where I ended up lying in bed awake tingling all over, with the experience engraved in my memory as if I'd attended those concerts in real life. Priceless. Literally.

In a nutshell: what goes in comes out - I love it. I imagine it might even grow on some people if they tried. But would I recommend it? No. Not to 99% of those audiophiles who claim they want the truth and nothing but the truth.

I didn't mention those who aren't even claiming truth is what they want. Personally, I see no wrong in wanting something that sounds unrealistically beautiful.

At home.

Just my five cents' worth, obviously…

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

Great post. Agreed, most audiophiles couldn't, or wouldn't want to, take the truth.

For example, people usually want a warm sound of a human voice. That's often legitimate and complies with reality, but to my surprise I have heard in live concerts classical voices, female or male, acquiring an almost slightly metallic character when belting out, depending on general character of the voice and also on the acoustic of the hall. The last such experience I had with a baritone singing Schubert's Winterreise, in Rockport, Massachusetts. When he fully raised his voice, it sometimes sounded hard, even somewhat harsh, and with this almost metallic overlay of timbre. It was particularly obvious with eyes closed, in order to shut out the visual distraction of the 'beauty' of it being a live event (unamplified of course).

So when I hear this at home from my rather transparent system, again depending on performer and recorded venue, what do I feel? I like the realism, but would I enjoy a less 'offensive' sound? Sure. But I'm not shocked about the truth, nor do I automatically think, as many people without the live experience would immediately do, that it's an artifact.

You have to be careful though, discerning between perceived realism and distortion from the system, which could elicit similar effects -- yet these would then be actual artifacts.

But I have also heard systems that tend to conceal such things, making the sound more beautiful. The problem then is, real beauty of sound is presented in a less transparent manner on such systems.
 
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Fascinating. If you'd been lucky enough to have been in the studio when LZ recorded Immigrant Song, and thus knew how it REALLY sounded, would you want that PRECISELY at home every time you played LZ3?

I'd venture not.
 
Of course not. I was still obsessed w jelly and ice cream when they recorded it Lol.
But I'm 100% certain I wouldn't want the authentic experience everytime I lined up the album.
 
Listening to a live rock concert every night is going to do some damage.

Tinnitus:
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/tinnitus/symptoms-causes/syc-20350156
Tinnitus caused by short-term exposure, such as attending a loud concert, usually goes away; both short- and long-term exposure to loud sound can cause permanent damage.

I'm fine with a pleasant simulation or facsimile because fatigue as mentioned is a factor.

One thing I have noticed is that on an LP I'm startled to realize that a side is over. On a CD I look over and see I'm on track 4 when I was hoping it was more like 8 and be done with it.

I consider my vinyl and digital to be equal reproducers of music, one of them just seems to move along quicker than the other.
 
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Fascinating. If you'd been lucky enough to have been in the studio when LZ recorded Immigrant Song, and thus knew how it REALLY sounded, would you want that PRECISELY at home every time you played LZ3?

I'd venture not.

Perhaps. But the classical 'theatrical' singing that I described is based on a different technique, since the singers needs to fill the venue with their unamplified voice. And I heard the sound characteristic in some, not all, live performances.

And yes, you wouldn't want to listen to Immigrant Song as loudly as it was performed in the studio.
 
Of course not. I was still obsessed w jelly and ice cream when they recorded it Lol.
But I'm 100% certain I wouldn't want the authentic experience everytime I lined up the album.

Even if you were there - what is the LZ sound you would use as a reference - the voice in the recording boot, in the control room or at the stadium?
 
My head inside John Bonham's kick drum will do.
 
Great post. Agreed, most audiophiles couldn't, or wouldn't want to, take the truth.

For example, people usually want a warm sound of a human voice. That's often legitimate and complies with reality, but to my surprise I have heard in live concerts classical voices, female or male, acquiring an almost slightly metallic character when belting out, depending on general character of the voice and also on the acoustic of the hall. The last such experience I had with a baritone singing Schubert's Winterreise, in Rockport, Massachusetts. When he fully raised his voice, it sometimes sounded hard, even somewhat harsh, and with this almost metallic overlay of timbre. It was particularly obvious with eyes closed, in order to shut out the visual distraction of the 'beauty' of it being a live event (unamplified of course).

So when I hear this at home from my rather transparent system, again depending on performer and recorded venue, what do I feel? I like the realism, but would I enjoy a less 'offensive' sound? Sure. But I'm not shocked about the truth, nor do I automatically think, as many people without the live experience would immediately do, that it's an artifact.

You have to be careful though, discerning between perceived realism and distortion from the system, which could elicit similar effects -- yet these would then be actual artifacts.

But I have also heard systems that tend to conceal such things, making the sound more beautiful. The problem then is, real beauty of sound is presented in a less transparent manner on such systems.

I used to be a more avid concertgoer than nowadays (needless to say, there aren't any concerts these days), but know exactly what you're referring to, a metallic "bite" in voices which I'm hearing even more as singers grow older, certain pianos etc. That's got nothing to do with what I meant when I mentioned digital artifacts such as grain, hash, and the resulting modulations onto the signal. As a matter of fact, said quality of hearing a metallic sound will soften or broaden sonically with low-level noise/distortion based modulation, resulting in less of a "ping" as I call it.

A system that manages to conceal actual digital artifacts will no doubt conceal more than just those. I couldn't live with the resulting loss of differentiation. Having said that, I've heard beautifully-sounding source components using (at this this stage of their evolution) sufficiently resolving chip sets, but e.g. output tube stages that add a moderate amount of harmonic distortion, which on balance achieve exactly what you're saying without the addition of any nasties. As I alluded to earlier, I wouldn't want to compare interpretations of a Piano or Violin Concerto using a DAC like that, as one is effectively differentiating subtleties that have a lesser impact on the specific sound of an instrument or voice or sound of nature than e.g. tube rolling. But since that's not what the respective owners do (some are posting here and may read this, so I'm being careful in my choice of words), the definition of "real beauty of sound" becomes a moving target, that's all.

For the most part, my definition of what it means to me is the same as yours. But I could easily, and may in fact as I grow older, add such a source component to my system - for some types of music, some qualities of recordings, not to mention mood and purpose. One problem I have with highly resolving, natural-sounding gear is I find it distractive in the sense that my attention is inevitably drawn into the music, so much so I've turned off playback as I'm typing these words. It's very much the same as when I go to a concert where it wouldn't cross my mind to pull out my smart phone and check my mails. One might say it's what one does out of respect for the musicians, and others in the audience, but the truth is, I wouldn't be an audiophile if I were one to enjoy a state of divided attention.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
 
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In an ideal world, I would own systems that cater for different types of music and moods. But sure, in order to save time and money, I'd recommend demoing all the usual suspects, from the top down.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

Much easier said than done. Even if you had a trusted friend to swap gear with, shipping is expensive.

FWIW, most concerts or local jazz events I go to, I wear earplugs. Live music can be far to explosive to enjoy without hearing protection. So too your point, what are we really looking for in home playback.
 
Great post. Agreed, most audiophiles couldn't, or wouldn't want to, take the truth.

For example, people usually want a warm sound of a human voice. That's often legitimate and complies with reality, but to my surprise I have heard in live concerts classical voices, female or male, acquiring an almost slightly metallic character when belting out, depending on general character of the voice and also on the acoustic of the hall. The last such experience I had with a baritone singing Schubert's Winterreise, in Rockport, Massachusetts. When he fully raised his voice, it sometimes sounded hard, even somewhat harsh, and with this almost metallic overlay of timbre. It was particularly obvious with eyes closed, in order to shut out the visual distraction of the 'beauty' of it being a live event (unamplified of course).

So when I hear this at home from my rather transparent system, again depending on performer and recorded venue, what do I feel? I like the realism, but would I enjoy a less 'offensive' sound? Sure. But I'm not shocked about the truth, nor do I automatically think, as many people without the live experience would immediately do, that it's an artifact.

You have to be careful though, discerning between perceived realism and distortion from the system, which could elicit similar effects -- yet these would then be actual artifacts.

But I have also heard systems that tend to conceal such things, making the sound more beautiful. The problem then is, real beauty of sound is presented in a less transparent manner on such systems.

Al, I think you are referring to the concert you attended with me and my father. Yes, that was a great experience and a wonderful concert. I wonder if the "metallic overlay of timbre" to the baritone's voice was the effect of the reflection from that huge glass front wall behind the singer affording the audience a spectacular view of the ocean beyond. I have been conflicted watching the sunset while trying to listen to a string quartet in that hall. I have heard concerts there, some with the curtain drawn, others with the glass exposed, and the sonics can be quite different.

Of course, this does not change your observation of the quality of his voice as heard in that space. I would only suggest that it is unusual to have such a large wall of glass behind the performers in a concert hall. Great for the visuals, not so great for the sonics. Even though his voice sounded as it did, I would not expect many recordings to sound like that.

The challenge is identified in what you wrote, highlighted in bold.
 
Al, I think you are referring to the concert you attended with me and my father. Yes, that was a great experience and a wonderful concert. I wonder if the "metallic overlay of timbre" to the baritone's voice was the effect of the reflection from that huge glass front wall behind the singer affording the audience a spectacular view of the ocean beyond. I have been conflicted watching the sunset while trying to listen to a string quartet in that hall. I have heard concerts there, some with the curtain drawn, others with the glass exposed, and the sonics can be quite different.

Of course, this does not change your observation of the quality of his voice as heard in that space. I would only suggest that it is unusual to have such a large wall of glass behind the performers in a concert hall. Great for the visuals, not so great for the sonics. Even though his voice sounded as it did, I would not expect many recordings to sound like that.

The challenge is identified in what you wrote, highlighted in bold.

Oh, wow! What you guys are talking about must have been much worse than what I had in mind. Reminds me I couldn't live in one of those modern "glass front" buildings, much less set up a system in a highly reflective room. Having said that, it's easier for the brain to filter out random or redundant noise in a live concert than on a HiFi-system.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
 
I've moved from a 22x27x13 apartment, front wall 70% glass incl three 9x7 windows, 27x22 concrete ceiling, multiple concrete columns and beams, minimal soft furnishings, no acoustic treatments, L-shaped into kitchenette, mezzanine galleried bed deck behind listening position, at least 8 corners/cubby holes, system to one side so one spkr in free space, spkrs v close to front wall.

And a sheer disaster acoustically.

Now in a dedicated space 18x48x9, gentle angled eaves, fully symmetrical, zero glass or concrete, 2/3 carpeted, floor and eaves packed w acoustic Rockwool, full suite acoustic treatments, system/spkrs symmetrical to side walls and way off front wall.

A wholly different system, no hyperbole at all.
 
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