Visit to Audiophile Bill to hear his horns project

[bonzo75]

Yes I your point

 

[bonzo75]

If you go in listening for flaws you’ll find them. If you go in with an open mind you’ll maybe appreciate the music.

More importantly, for the manufacturer, the market is the average listener. If the speaker can't reproduce Kogan's violin from original pressings, very few will be affected. But getting that feel of soundstage, bass, and highs with a cuddly "they are here" is more important commercially

 

[kodomo]

More importantly, for the manufacturer, the market is the average listener. If the speaker can't reproduce Kogan's violin from original pressings, very few will be affected. But getting that feel of soundstage, bass, and highs with a cuddly "they are here" is more important commercially

Once more, I want to remind, what I am talking about has nothing to do with commercial sucess. Actually, tests proved that too! In Harman tests, price or market penetration showed to have no correlation and has been found out to be a completely unreliable parameter in relation to speaker performance.

 

[the sound of Tao]

More importantly, for the manufacturer, the market is the average listener. If the speaker can't reproduce Kogan's violin from original pressings, very few will be affected. But getting that feel of soundstage, bass, and highs with a cuddly "they are here" is more important commercially

I’m just a bit troubled by this very cuddly ‘they are there‘ thing Lol... going in to an experience within an analytical framework leads to the separation that comes of objectivity which then requires a grasping fragmentation and dissection, whereas experiencing wholeness requires first just a stillness, reception and openness.

Listening itself is openness, if you go in from a position of simply allowing the experience to flood in and to listen without goal or preconception or intention it is possible to initially just know the wholeness first.

If then there is less than rightness then it is good to move into awareness and analyse and see where the lack of rightness might lay. If however you are in the music and not able to escape it then perhaps there is then no need to change anything. If your purpose is to be in the music that is... if it is to experience the sound of your system then staying distant from the music is probably a very good thing as music can be a terrible distraction from the sound of your system.

 

[Tango]

I am sorry Bill, I am just a little vary of these arguments, I did not want to put you in a position as a spokesman for AER. Further than that, my disappointment was because I really like how Aer drivers sound. Maybe I have read into it wrong but the attitude just reminded me of manufacturers who claim to have better ears/brains whatever they call it, and can do whatever they want to do and no tests can live up to their golden standards to back them up or falsify them. Once more, I hope I have read into it wrongly.

Often designers just don't want to talk about it and cut it short like that. The guy must have done hundreds of testing and measurement. So much that he found his own truth. Ralph of Cessaro is like this too. He doesnt like to go into technical unless his customer really insist. I read so much of what we wrote about horn, drivers, etc. I am sure he knows all these, tried these, and probably a lot more. Their choice is determined also by their commercial reasons. People like them do this for living so they dont enjoy writing out in forum like we amature and consumers (most of us.) In fact they probably think talking audio in free time is the least they want to do. Fishing is probably much more interesting.

So I think you were reading into it wrong Kodomo san.

 

[kodomo]

Often designers just don't want to talk about it and cut it short like that. The guy must have done hundreds of testing and measurement. So much that he found his own truth. Ralph of Cessaro is like this too. He doesnt like to go into technical unless his customer really insist. I read so much of what we wrote about horn, drivers, etc. I am sure he knows all these, tried these, and probably a lot more. Their choice is determined also by their business approach. People like them do this for living so they dont enjoy writing out in forum like we amature and consumers (most of us.) In fact they probably think talking audio in free time is the least they want to do. Fishing is probably much more interesting.

So I think you were reading into it wrong Kodomo san.

I may have, and I would not like to offend or belittle anyone like that, sorry if I got it wrong.

To note, I am not expecting any of them to write anything on forums. I am expecting them to provide comprehensive data along their products on their websites, catalogs etc. though.

 

[bonzo75]

manufacturer's don't necessarily have the resources to do these compares. Ralph might have after he became commercially successful, not necessarily before. That said, he ended up with excellent raw material, so he personally might have had. TAD is not exactly a secret.

Also, they can't choose good drivers if they have been discontinued, or if they have low warranty. They need to have supply of all their raw material guaranteed.

Also, they can't just copy designs, even if the old designs sound better than theirs. So Cessaro can't just make another horn similar to what Altec or JBL or TAD did, but have to come up with their own new design and math.

Finally, their margins need to be extremely high if they want to do it for their main living.

 

[Tango]

manufacturer's don't necessarily have the resources to do these compares. Ralph might have after he became commercially successful, not necessarily before. That said, he ended up with excellent raw material, so he personally might have had. TAD is not exactly a secret.

Also, they can't choose good drivers if they have been discontinued, or if they have low warranty. They need to have supply of all their raw material guaranteed.

Also, they can't just copy designs, even if the old designs sound better than theirs. So Cessaro can't just make another horn similar to what Altec or JBL or TAD did, but have to come up with their own new design and math.

Finally, their margins need to be extremely high if they want to do it for their main living.

So true. He might even has his personal best sounding driver in mind that is not TAD but TAD is the best compromise for him to make commercial repeatable servicable speakers for long run business.

And of course, Without good margin, no business class flight, no Porsche driving daily, no private school for kids, no beautiful wife.

 

[microstrip]

Actually, if I was a manufacturer I would not audition the listeners to find those who listened critically...i would try to find those who listened average

IMHO we can't put all manufacturers in the same basket. The high-end is small niche with its own rules, very different from general audio. Although some manufacturers produce and sell in all types of markets, they have different development systems and targets according to their targets.

 

[kodomo]

IMHO we can't put all manufacturers in the same basket. The high-end is small niche with its own rules, very different from general audio. Although some manufacturers produce and sell in all types of markets, they have different development systems and targets according to their targets.

Very true that it is a niche market. The attitude there is at "high-end" audio is very different than the world of "pro-audio". As far as I can see, most high end audio is not driven by technology, innovation and claims that can be backed up objectively but is driven more by marketing in whatever guise it has.

 

[microstrip]

So true. He might even has his personal best sounding driver in mind that is not TAD but TAD is the best compromise for him to make commercial repeatable servicable speakers for long run business. (...)

Anyway, I would like to have his own opinion on the TD-4001 versus the TD-4003.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Hi Sami,

Filip doesn’t read the forum so won’t see your comments and questions. I can certainly try to forward to get a response.

That said, he has already stated that he has made “17,000 measurements” so I think it is probably likely that many of these measurements are going to be beyond the typically published metrics and presumably conducted under rigorous scientific conditions (otherwise why bother) including anechoic conditions.

That said I am not a spokesman for AER so will try to get a response.

Best.

Hi Sami / All,

I got a reply from Filip as follows:

“No need to be sad. Kodomo is very right in many parts, especially when he claims that there must be new measuring concepts. This is necessary, because the old ones are misleading and putting more harm to the whole thing as many people realise and have put some kind of stillstand to the development of the whole Highfidelity movement. Kind regards Filip”

 

[Audio_Dog]

Amazing design and execution, Bill.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I always go into a demo with a curious mind, not a sceptical mindset. Horns have been such a mixed bag for me, that sceptical could easily be the mindset.

The last two horns I've heard prior to Bill's, and other than Blue58's Duos that I know almost as well as my Zus, left a bit to be desired from my personal shopping list of SQ wants, one horn a total failure in every way possible.

And I know from previous experience of all horns what they struggle to provide for my musical tastes.

So, I guess I went to Bill curious, with just a soupçon of "you convince me".

 

[Robh3606]

To note, I am not expecting any of them to write anything on forums. I am expecting them to provide comprehensive data along their products on their websites, catalogs etc. though.

Yes you go to some websites and there is absolutely nothing beside advertising or heaps of subjective praise. I have to start a new thread about a column in Stereophile that addresses this topic.

Rob

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Amazing design and execution, Bill.

Thanks so much Mr Audio Dog - appreciate kind words of support!

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I always go into a demo with a curious mind, not a sceptical mindset. Horns have been such a mixed bag for me, that sceptical could easily be the mindset.

The last two horns I've heard prior to Bill's, and other than Blue58's Duos that I know almost as well as my Zus, left a bit to be desired from my personal shopping list of SQ wants, one horn a total failure in every way possible.

And I know from previous experience of all horns what they struggle to provide for my musical tastes.

So, I guess I went to Bill curious, with just a soupçon of "you convince me".

I did feel a lot of pressure I’ll be honest - when you pour a lot of time and passion into something, I guess you become extremely connected to it so I was most fearful you wouldn’t like it especially knowing your negative horn history.

 

[Tango]

Anyway, I would like to have his own opinion on the TD-4001 versus the TD-4003.

He said 1) the TD-4003 has been out of production since ten years ago so a no go if you make a commercial speaker 2) he doesn't view the two models better or worse. Difference is in tonality. 3) he thinks the 4003 is made for two way system 4) he now has a new driver, his own, that sonically in the same direction as 4003.

Apologize for getting off topic Bill. Will stop now.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

He said 1) the TD-4003 has been out of production since ten years ago so a no go if you make a commercial speaker 2) he doesn't view the two models better or worse. Difference is in tonality. 3) he thinks the 4003 is made for two way system 4) he now has a new driver, his own, that sonically in the same direction as 4003.

Apologize for getting off topic Bill. Will stop now.

No problem, Tang. Always good to learn about new horn drivers

 

[microstrip]

He said 1) the TD-4003 has been out of production since ten years ago so a no go if you make a commercial speaker 2) he doesn't view the two models better or worse. Difference is in tonality. 3) he thinks the 4003 is made for two way system 4) he now has a new driver, his own, that sonically in the same direction as 4003.

Apologize for getting off topic Bill. Will stop now.

Thanks for such great information. And IMHO it is really on topic, according to the best WBF tradition. I am really curious about 4).