Visit to Audiophile Bill to hear his horns project

[bonzo75]

Thanks for such great information. And IMHO it is really on topic, according to the best WBF tradition. I am really curious about 4).

I asked Tang what did Ralph say was the difference in tonality, and he replied that speed and detail are the same, but 4003 has more body. Leif too referred to this by saying it has "More growl".

The 2 way Ralph says is exactly what I am planning as 4003 is linear to 18khz, so tweeter can be added but optional. Altec type dual FLH bass horn will allow me to go low in one cabinet, where horn loading starts low with vented bass, horn loading comes in between 100 to 130 and continues to 550 HZ Leif type solution will allow dual FLH to 75, and then bass horn or SLOB active below 75 but outside the crossover. It will sound better, and no vented bass, but will look bigger.

 

[jdza]

I asked Tang what did Ralph say was the difference in tonality, and he replied that speed and detail are the same, but 4003 has more body. Leif too referred to this by saying it has "More growl".

The 2 way Ralph says is exactly what I am planning as 4003 is linear to 18khz, so tweeter can be added but optional. Altec type dual FLH bass horn will allow me to go low in one cabinet, where horn loading starts low with vented bass, horn loading comes in between 100 to 130 and continues to 550 HZ Leif type solution will allow dual FLH to 75, and then bass horn or SLOB active below 75 but outside the crossover. It will sound better, and no vented bass, but will look bigger.

Please note that the 4001 has a 2 inch throat and 4003 a 1.5 inch. One therefore can't use both on the same horn. Any attempt to "shootout" these two drivers on the same horn would be invalid as the throat adapter needed i.e 1.5 to 2 inch or ( even worse) 2 to 1.5 inch would have a far more deleterious effect than any suspected superiority of one driver over the other.

Just accept it. 4003 is superior to 4001 by a ,not at all, narrow margin and buy or build an appropriate horn from the start..

 

[bonzo75]

Please note that the 4001 has a 2 inch throat and 4003 a 1.5 inch. One therefore can't use both on the same horn. Any attempt to "shootout" these two drivers on the same horn would be invalid as the throat adapter needed i.e 1.5 to 2 inch or ( even worse) 2 to 1.5 inch would have a far more deleterious effect than any suspected superiority of one driver over the other.

Just accept it. 4003 is superior to 4001 by a ,not at all, narrow margin and buy or build an appropriate horn from the start..

Yes I am well aware. Leif and his friends owned both and are experts on the horns technology front. I heard two 4003 including Leif's, realized how he and his friends go about things, and then just took his word for it. I was already hypothetically at Radian or TAD into dual FLH, Leif's visit just confirmed it with the 4003

 

[Alrainbow]

Often designers just don't want to talk about it and cut it short like that. The guy must have done hundreds of testing and measurement. So much that he found his own truth. Ralph of Cessaro is like this too. He doesnt like to go into technical unless his customer really insist. I read so much of what we wrote about horn, drivers, etc. I am sure he knows all these, tried these, and probably a lot more. Their choice is determined also by their commercial reasons. People like them do this for living so they dont enjoy writing out in forum like we amature and consumers (most of us.) In fact they probably think talking audio in free time is the least they want to do. Fishing is probably much more interesting.

So I think you were reading into it wrong Kodomo san.

mostly because most customers wont understand or appreciate the technical effort ..

 

[Audiophile Bill]

A small record clamp interlude whilst the speaker finalisation occurs.

Have been building all manner of clamps for about 12 months now. Here is the latest design (4th version of this particular design) that I am really happy with aesthetically and sonically. Uses multiple bearings inside.

 

[ddk]

Is machining wood a recent hobby Bill?
david

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Is machining wood a recent hobby Bill?
david

Hi David,

I was interested in it as a child and teenager and did a lot then. Then a long period of time without whilst working in big corporate life but now reacquainted with my love of natural materials and creativity. I find it enormously cathartic and enjoyable. That said it is as equally damaging (as hifi) on the wallet with the plethora of beautiful machines / gear...

 

[ddk]

Hi David,

I was interested in it as a child and teenager and did a lot then. Then a long period of time without whilst working in big corporate life but now reacquainted with my love of natural materials and creativity. I find it enormously cathartic and enjoyable. That said it is as equally damaging (as hifi) on the wallet with the plethora of beautiful machines / gear...

Hi David,

I was interested in it as a child and teenager and did a lot then. Then a long period of time without whilst working in big corporate life but now reacquainted with my love of natural materials and creativity. I find it enormously cathartic and enjoyable. That said it is as equally damaging (as hifi) on the wallet with the plethora of beautiful machines / gear...

I know how that goes too, it's not just the money it's space too, but the satisfaction of making things makes it all worthwhile !

david

 

[spiritofmusic]

Dave, I'm one of the few people to see Bill's creations up close and personal. I was truly gobsmacked. In a world of MDF and veneers, even super pricey upper end stuff, and preponderance of plastics in horns, Bill's designs stand out a mile.

And they sound quite good too Lol.

 

[ddk]

Dave, I'm one of the few people to see Bill's creations up close and personal. I was truly gobsmacked. In a world of MDF and veneers, even super pricey upper end stuff, and preponderance of plastics in horns, Bill's designs stand out a mile.

And they sound quite good too Lol.

Lucky Bill! Joking aside, it's fun to hear about them.

david

 

[DaveC]

Hi Bill, Just now catching up on your build... things are crazy now, especially in the US, not a lot of extra time but I'm glad I took the time to read the thread!

BIG congrats on your project coming to fruition! It looks amazing and I'm sure it sounds amazing without even hearing it. I've had BD3 but never heard BD4, I can imagine it's amazing considering the BD3 was excellent. I'm sure you'll get a lifetime of happy listening and maybe even a 2nd biz out of it too.

I've hired my 1st employee and finally have the time and resources to build final prototypes of my speaker. I plan to make the horn out of wood as well as basalt fiber, it should be interesting to see how they compare. My new employee has been a friend for a long time and has previously used basalt fiber in designs for helmet shells because of it's flex and damping properties. For wood I found a turner with decades of experience I can trust to make horns that hopefully won't crack! The horn is a JMLC w/ fc at ~330 Hz housing a 4.5" wideband driver and has a roll off of ~400 Hz which is augmented by a simple xo to reduce excursion. Hopefully it'll be done within the next couple months!

I can't wait to see your multi-way project, if it's on the same kind of scale as the full-range design I'm sure it's going to be amazing... OMA and Cessaro might have some competition!

 

[spiritofmusic]

Just returned from a second audition of Bill's horns, some changes made since last time.

New production 15" woofers in subs section replacing vintage (still very high efficiency).
Sub amps/xovers now in external chassis', connected to spkrs by umbilicals.

And his DaVa cart, replacing Red Sparrow.

I loved his sound last time, a really beguiling combination of natural authentic tone and effortless dynamics. I had some reservations, centred on some lack of slam/oomph in the subs (unexpected when you're presented w 8x 15" cones Lol), and a hint of overly euphonic warmth (which seeing Bill's labour of love re 100% mahogany horn meant that was not unexpected...certainly different to the ABS plastic horns I'm very familiar with w AG Duos at Chez Blue58).

I decided to bring a lot more of my music along, incl a classical box set LP that I had just listened to, but not overly familiar with ie 1973 Decca pressing/Antal Dorati conducting Haydn Symphony No.22 in E Flat Maj.

LZ/ Three, Japanese pressing, "Immigrant Song"
Rush/Moving Pictures, Japanese pressing, "Tom Sawyer"
T Lavitz/Storytime, "Baby Talk"
Little Feat/Time Loves A Hero, title track and "Day At The Dog Races"
Stuart Hamm/Radio Free Albemuth, arrangement for bass and keyboards of Dr. Gradus Ad Parnasum by Debussy
Dixie Dregs/Dregs Of The Earth, "Pride O'The Farm"
Miles Davis/Nefertiti, original UK pressing, title track
Larry Coryell/Spaces, original US pressing "Rene's Theme"
Adrian Legg/Technopicker, "Kalahari Blues"

Bill picked out Goldfrapp/Strict Machine
Ella Fitzgerald/Fine And Mellow
Julian Bream and John Williams/Together
Campoli/Bruch
Cannonball Adderley/Know What I Mean.

I got a better impression today, of an already improved sound. I really don't say this lightly, it's a sound that is both magical and yet doesn't draw attention to itself.

So I yet again heard amazing transparency, but the improvements in slam and bass transient attack, seamless with the main horn, and that horn having less overt warm woody character overlaying the sound, meant for both a less euphonic sound and also an uncanny ability for the soundstage to detach from the spkrs.

I've never heard this level of sonic invisibility of spkrs placement from any other setup. The first few tracks had a stage that was super tangible, but fully layered in the depth plane so that the illusion of the spkrs was way back, beyond the front wall. My Zus image nicely too, but the centre of gravity is still between them. Bill's horns sound just magically appeared fleshed out, seemingly independent of the spkrs.

The only other setup I've heard get close to this was Z Axis Paul's Concert Fidelity hybrid amps/modded Martin Logan panels, but the palpable tone and texture not there to the same level as these horns. No criticism of Paul's sound, it is truly a triumph too.

What I loved about this was the ability to just add whole swathes of information conveyed in a 100% holistic and enjoyable way. The Haydn symphony that is a little pedestrian and grey thru my Zus just leapt into life here, the strings dancing lightly, great earthiness underlying it all. Really mesmerising.

The ability to carve out a stage was also especially evident on my LZ pick. You could really feel the studio confines bulge as Bonham kicked the shit out of his drums. This track is truly impressive on my Zus, but this dimensional, effortless and textured/layered sound really created a palpable experience I'm not hearing elsewhere very much at all.

The crowning moment of the demo today was the Larry Coryell track. His guitar duet w John McLaughlin was startlingly present, warm and resolved, both instrumental lines so easy to follow, but the holistic end result a perfect amalgam. This song has sounded unimpressive in a few systems...not on mine, and certainly not on Bill's, this was analog magic from the horns.

Big mention for the DaVa cart...we both feel it was contributing a lot to the overall effect, and if my recollection of the first visit is right, I prefer it's meatier, more direct sound to the slightly more ethereal less grounded Red Sparrow.

I don't think I've ever been so impressed across the board by a set of spkrs, esp horns. They have no discernable weakness, sound great across genres and mastering variations (yes, even Rush sounded compelling Lol), and have a magical quality that caused me to literally smack my head...they totally disappear leaving the full magic of music in the room.

Bill, you're to be totally commended for both hitting the ground running, and realising a totally compelling musical transducer that will satisfy the most discerning and fussy listener.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Hi Marc,

Wow - thank you so much for your really kind words - I really appreciate it and so happy you enjoyed the system again. Also that you feel I have progressed further than last time. The amount of hours spent building and designing the sub amps has really taken it out of me - looking forward to having a little rest lol.

It was really helpful, in fact, to hear all your LPs because I had no idea whether they would sound good or not tbh since I am mainly classical and jazz at home. I am actually going to buy a couple of those we played because I really enjoyed them.

The DaVa really opened up today and I was quite shocked myself at the layering and depth of the imaging together with a holistic and fast sound. It is a really lovely cartridge.

Anyway - thank you very much for visiting me again and for your company.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Bill, I always return home from you super relaxed, hearing of your trials and tribulations. However, whatever stresses you describe perfecting your designs, your 200% enthusiasm for your project shines thru, and is fully reflected in your product.

I cant comment on all the uber spkrs out there. All I know is I've heard various examples of Wilson, Magico, Rockport, YG, Kharma, AG Trio and Duo, Cessaro Liszt and Beta, Pnoe, and while these examples all do many things right, none of them achieve the effortless invisibility I heard today.

What was so impressive was the lack of flagging up of the attribute itself. A good example is the Apogee Divas I visited a few years back. It too had effortless imaging. Really impressive pinpoint capabilities. But they kept drawing attention to themselves. So the music was there in all its glory, but so were the Divas right behind it.

Bill's horns. Again, the music was laid out, but now in an unshowy holistic way, the message communicated but the messenger carefully concealed Lol.

It sounds strange to say you would buy anything not to be aware of it. But this is deffo what you want w spkrs. And what you get w these horns. Hugely impressive.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Wow! Wow! Wow! Thank you for that detailed, thoughtful and very well-written report, Marc!

And a giant congratulations to Bill!!!

 

[the sound of Tao]

Congratulations Bill on getting your subs integrated, giant win. If you can get Marc to have unconditional love for a pair of horns that’s the proof you’ve got something special happening.

Getting seamless is no easy task and I figure coherence is such a make or break factor (along with right balance). For me it can make immediate connection or create a very discernible rift between us and the fabric of the music.

The diy horn is such a big journey and it’s pretty inspiring that you’re taking it on. I’d be another who’s looking forward to seeing and hearing more on the horn project. Not just seeing the finished setup and maybe even a video or two but also to hear more on the design story and how it all unfolded for you. Very cool.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Graham, it is quite the trick. I loved the Cessaro Liszts when I first heard them, but even then I was generally aware that the bass and mids didn't knit properly, despite loving the tone.

The Divas I heard knitted seamlessly, but they were too showy and contrasted, emphasising detail rather than illuminating it.

Bill's horns nail seamlessness and this hugely special magic trick of deep resolution that is beguiling rather than highlighted.

 

[adyc]

Any pictures?

 

[spiritofmusic]

Sorry. Too busy listening.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Dear Bill,

How will you know when this test bed version is finished, the design truly is pencils-down finalized, and ready for production?

(Or will each pair be slightly different as you make on-the-fly improvements during production?)