My monitor/subwoofer system
- Thread starter Al M.
- Start date
You can interpret my post as you wish, Keith. You are entitled to your opinion, I am entitled to mine. Thanks for your willingness to help. And rest assured, I am not constantly fiddling with my speaker setup.
If it is any indication, my audiophile friends are usually impressed when they hear my system, as can also be read on this thread. So there seems to be nothing inherently wrong with my setup and a lot good with it
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It seems to me that this is an individual hobby and people are free to pursue it in anyway they want. Some will hire an outside expert or dealer to set everything up for them and others will tinker to their delight and learn in the process.
In my case I continue to tinker because I have so much more to learn and I am enjoying the process.
with the recent changes to the sound with new speaker cables or preamp or power delivery, I am finding very minor changes in speaker position and fine-tuning seems to better optimize some of those other changes. And if I end up where I started, I will have at least learn something in the process.
I think we are generally quick to criticize the way others approach the hobby. If Al were to actually solicit the advice of others rather than just report what he is doing, then I think suggestions would be more constructive and welcome.
The other important element in all of this is that tastes can change over time regardless of whether or not our reference of live music changes. With more experience and exposure we start realizing new things which may lead us to even more tinkering. In the end, it’s all good.
In my case I continue to tinker because I have so much more to learn and I am enjoying the process.
with the recent changes to the sound with new speaker cables or preamp or power delivery, I am finding very minor changes in speaker position and fine-tuning seems to better optimize some of those other changes. And if I end up where I started, I will have at least learn something in the process.
I think we are generally quick to criticize the way others approach the hobby. If Al were to actually solicit the advice of others rather than just report what he is doing, then I think suggestions would be more constructive and welcome.
The other important element in all of this is that tastes can change over time regardless of whether or not our reference of live music changes. With more experience and exposure we start realizing new things which may lead us to even more tinkering. In the end, it’s all good.
That is a good question, Tango.
My system as such is mature. I think I have pretty much optimized what can be achieved within the type of system that I have, based on two-way monitors combined with subwoofers. There is hardly anything that I would find worth upgrading within the context of this system, if I am not to make a jump to much bigger speakers, in a bigger room, something that my financial resources would not allow.
At some point I thought that my digital source might be a last weak link, but given the incredible resolution of fine timbral detail with this DAC (on Redhook CD file) even on orchestral music, which I recently heard in Madfloyd's system with the mighty Magico M Project speakers, as well as the purity and ease of tone there, I don't think that the source is holding back my system in any way. Its capabilities significantly exceed the already formidable ones of my system. Not quite surprising in a sense, as it approaches or equals the capabilities of much more expensive digital sources. (On smaller-scale music other than orchestral my system comes much closer to the high level of resolution of such a "big" system.)
I have also not made any system upgrade since the transformative one last year, with the Octave HP700 preamp, except the recent addition of the Empirical Audio Synchro-Mesh reclocker (described on the previous page), which was a relatively modest investment and the icing on the cake for my digital.
I have written down some thoughts elsewhere on the forum about what I have, versus the next big jump:
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...d-assess-your-system.30110/page-2#post-630704
Even then, some of the strengths of the system as it stands might not be easily replicable. Especially on less complex music, there is an always at-the-ready ease and immediacy of lively dynamic expression in my system that is remarkable. It may be facilitated also by the direct coupling, without cross-over, of the mid-woofers of my monitors to the amp, and might not readily be achieved to quite this extent in a larger cone-based approach (horn speakers are another thing of course). Also, the seductive immediacy of presentation on some small-scale music is another thing that is not that easily achievable on a "big" system.
Given my resources and living conditions, I think I am really at a mature end point here from a system perspective, but one that I greatly enjoy.
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In terms of final speaker set-up and room acoustics, there is probably still some room to evolve, so maturity on this level may not quite have set in yet
. I am also thinking of further amending my ceiling problems, with a new array for diffusers, perhaps compensated in terms of room liveliness by a less absorbing carpet than the large one made out of wool in the front half of the room, at and behind the speakers.. While the existing diffusers have helped immensely to reduce HF distortions, there is still residual metallic 'zing' echo audible upon hand clapping which is bound to have an effect (it used to be much worse before installment of the diffusers). So an additional, perhaps more sparsely arranged, array of ceiling diffusers might make sense at some point, but right now this is not a priority.Quick to judge? I've been reading his thread for 5 years and just suggested this
In a related vein, I had a very difficult room (which you actually heard) and fiddled with placement with new Devores for weeks - had multiple friends out etc. and all had there own preference. I liked some positions, then would grown frustrated with others. A dealer came out and solved the riddle in a few hours.
I am 3,000 miles away and not part of the Boston group so provide a completely external voice just based on what I've read over the years, take it or leave it. Good luck, Al.
Tang, how would you define a “mature” system? Is it as simple as one that is no longer evolving? The first time I ever read this term was Mike Lavigne describing his own system. Since then he has added multiple turntables cartridges tone arms and SUT’s. Perhaps phono cables also. Do you consider his amp and speakers and room to be mature but the source components not mature?
Mike hired a professional outfit to design and build his listening room and then spent years modifying the room to better suit his personal tastes. That process now seems to be complete, so I would agree that his room now seems “mature” if that is defined as no longer evolving or changing.
What about a guy who buys a turntable with multiple arm posts so that he can experiment with different tone arms and different cartridges? Would you describe the system as mature but the front and source component as evolving?
Can a digital source based system ever be considered mature with the technology changing so rapidly?
What is your interest in identifying the systems that you think are mature? Do you hope to learn something through the process of identifying such systems? Will you consider Bonzo’s system mature the moment it is purchased and set up is completed?
I suspect my own system will never be mature and always evolving.
From the above, Tang's definition appears to be that if, after your search, have a base system you are happy with, that's a mature system. You don't feel it incomplete, nor do you feel you have many more avenues to explore. Sure, you can play around with a few things, or you can, referring to the tannoy specific question I show asked, think that more can be had with more spend, but you are happy to give it up for what you have. You should know what you are giving up though
So, in your case, if Magico and pass are your final choices after your search, and if your set up settles down, that's mature, even if you upgrade models later or stay within the same sound. Important that you should feel you have exhausted alternatives, and your taste is not changing drastically
So, in your case, if Magico and pass are your final choices after your search, and if your set up settles down, that's mature, even if you upgrade models later or stay within the same sound. Important that you should feel you have exhausted alternatives, and your taste is not changing drastically
Peter, I think one could maybe at least say a mature system is from someone understanding their goals. It comes from knowing what they want even if it changes.
Where as others really just don’t know. They upgrade for small aspects of system but try new stuff often. They want people to tell them what’s good, because what is ultimately still desirable remains elusive to them.
The system will exude the character they seek. It won’t necessarily be universally liked.
Where as others really just don’t know. They upgrade for small aspects of system but try new stuff often. They want people to tell them what’s good, because what is ultimately still desirable remains elusive to them.
The system will exude the character they seek. It won’t necessarily be universally liked.
I understand this, but it does not seem to leave room for someone changing his tastes overtime. So the system may have been mature not changed in anyway and then suddenly the owner decides he wants to change because he listens to a different genre of music or spends more time in front of live music or any other number of possible reasons.
I suppose at that point people can just say, “well, his system used to be mature.“ I think a distinction needs to be made between the system itself and the owner. Unless as they say in California “you are what you drive.“
We will see what Tang thinks.
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It's a question of experience Peter, IME most audiophiles have no idea what to go for and what to target in an system and they're not really to blame. It takes time to understand and opportunity to sample, that's the reason my system hasn't changed almost at all in twenty years when prior to really knowing what it should be I used to change components constantly thinking I knew what I wanted vs what it should be. "Natural" is what I arrived out and knew it instantly when I got there.
david
Yes if his tastes have not evolved his system won't be mature. Look at Christian, Mike, Tang, and many of those who have been in the game for long. Their tastes changed to include classical, classical wasn't such a big part in their early audiophile years. I think most of us in the initial audiophile exposure, if you visited a dealer, they would play you the normal audiophile stuff and that's what you would learn. And after that you would learn about different music and recordings to use. To choose good gear, you need to have good listening points/references, so if those haven't matured, tastes won't mature, and system won't mature
I don’t know why a stereo couldn’t devolve if someone wants to go for a different sound. But it might mean their stereo wasn’t mature for them to start - even if it would be for someone as the goal was hit - if they’re making radical changes.
Change in musical tastes has many causes, mine was 80's pop/rock nothing to do with any system outside of a few bands I just hated it specially what was going in Britain. With maturity also came the need for more and better I simply couldn't listen to Ozzzzzy's drivel, I can't listen to Black Sabbath's lyrics anymore thinking what's this crap that I loved so much.
Being able to play and enjoy acoustic and more complex music on one's system is a different thing Ked and it becomes easier and more entertaining to listen to in a more natural setup. Tang switched to classical music almost overnight when we removed the cat litter boxes, several audiophile paraphernalia and audiophile power cords. Yes AS2000 and Lamms further enhanced the experience but the transformation to "natural" happened with decluttering the system. It's very difficult to enjoy complex music in a colored system, I'm not talking about ultimate resolution but rather low coloration and natural tonality and balance so the musical intent can come through to the listener. I liked classical music for years before I enjoyed playing it at home, jazz and some vintage rock is what my prior systems could play well enough but not classical for several years.
david
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Agreed. I could arrive at what I described above as being a mature system, because I have had certain clear goals and priorities. I had most of these from very early on my audiophile journey, at least from the time I switched from a headphone system to my first speaker system, in 1991 -- one which also was based on monitors. In addition, I also knew which compromises I was willing to make. My wide interests in music had already been developed in principle, so that there were no drastic shifts in system goals based on exposure to new kinds of music.
Yet naturally my opinions as to what exactly I wanted to achieve have been added to and refined by my exposure to other systems, especially those of my audiophile friends, and that exposure and their help have led me to a system that I could not have arrived at on my own.
Yet if it were up to most of those friends, I should not have a monitor/subwoofer system anymore by now
. But I still do, because I know what I personally want and which compromises I am willing to live with, given my personal circumstances.As to my specific goals, these are described here (I already linked above to the post):
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...d-assess-your-system.30110/page-2#post-630704
Tang shifted to classical music when I played him some. I also pressed him a few times to order the General's originals, and sent him 3 YouTube videos he liked where he appreciated classical. the first box of originals reached on my third day at Tang's place.
I think listening to classical has much less to do with the system, though it sounds much more easy and natural on a simple vintage tannoy than on a Wilson or Magico type speaker.
Tang's system would play classical better with AS, vdh, etc, but would be good enough for classical even with his CD player, tape, kronos, and any other cartridge.
Classical sounds great on a variety of system, it is just knowing what to listen for. That Hilary Hahn LP, for example, was a joke. And if stockfisch type CDs are played, system can go in any direction and sound good. And I am not saying people should be spending on original LPs, streaming classical digitally can create some excellent sound in systems.
War Pigs on good LP is fantastic. Best rock I have heard outside Mike's, on Altec dual FLH
I was not a Sabbath fan, but this LP converted me. Also a few years ago I had been to a concert in Hyde Park where Soundgarden performed the opening act, and Black Sabbath then followed for the main act. Even at this age they were so much superior to Soundgarden live. I was surprised, because on CDs and cassettes on non hifi systems growing up, I always had preferred Soundgarden to Black Sabbath. But live it was a different story.
I was not a Sabbath fan, but this LP converted me. Also a few years ago I had been to a concert in Hyde Park where Soundgarden performed the opening act, and Black Sabbath then followed for the main act. Even at this age they were so much superior to Soundgarden live. I was surprised, because on CDs and cassettes on non hifi systems growing up, I always had preferred Soundgarden to Black Sabbath. But live it was a different story.
They were my all time greats too until I heard them again about a year ago after a very long time. I still liked the sound but man the lyrics really suckHehe, here's some news for you, David
Despite the fact that I like a very wide range of music, including the most sophisticated classical music.
.david
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