High Level Subwoofer Inputs: A Necessary Feature?

musicfirst1

VIP/Donor
Mar 8, 2015
504
310
395
Canada
www.musicfirstdistribution.ca
The argument is that high level inputs to one's subwoofer(s) are necessary to keep the character of the mains amplifier(s) to the subs.
The argument seems legitimate, but I have never tried low level or LFE inputs. Any thoughts on this?
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 24, 2015
16,185
13,611
2,665
Beverly Hills, CA
I subscribe to this REL high-level (speaker level) input philosophy. So does Evolution Acoustics.

But, as with everything in our subjective hobby, opinions vary. Notably JL Audio and Wilson Audio do not provision their subwoofer cross-over controllers for high level inputs.
 
  • Like
Reactions: sujay

Al M.

VIP/Donor
Sep 10, 2013
8,785
4,543
1,213
Greater Boston
My first subwoofer was a REL Storm III, and initially I used the high level input fed by the power amps' output. Then I switched to the low level input and it was fine. Now I have JL Audio subs and never missed a high level input.

I do have tube amplification (now Octave preamp and amp), but bass is tight, so there does not seem to be a need to adapt what the subwoofer sees to the character of the amp. I have found instead that positioning of both the main speakers and the subs is critical for good bass.

The positioning of the main speakers, critical to the quality of their bass output in the room, affects also the perceived quality of the low bass from the subs, since the entire bass envelope, with the upper 'edge' of the bass coming from the main speaker, is one whole.
 

Al M.

VIP/Donor
Sep 10, 2013
8,785
4,543
1,213
Greater Boston
A high-level inputs are the best way to go. Period.

Well, that's an authoritative statement. There you go. Case closed.
 
  • Like
Reactions: rgmd11 and Lagonda

Lagonda

VIP/Donor
Feb 3, 2014
3,501
4,800
1,255
Denmark
High level does not seem to have quite the adjustability that some line level crossovers have. My Vandersteen subs sound good, but adjusting the absolute right phase position is not an option, i am not sure if this is possible with REL, i could not find continues phase adjustment when i read up on REL 25, but might be wrong. I’m sure Evolution Acoustics have it. Having the character of the main amps carried into the sound of the bass can be better done by using identical amps for main and subs :)
 

ddk

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2013
6,261
4,043
995
Utah
The argument is that high level inputs to one's subwoofer(s) are necessary to keep the character of the mains amplifier(s) to the subs.
The argument seems legitimate, but I have never tried low level or LFE inputs. Any thoughts on this?

It's actually the other way around you're still going through cheap electronics in the sub, how does that make sense to differ from low level? It's just a convenience feature that came out of car audio. Yes, it's important that the sub amps match the main amplifier but this isn't how you do it.

david
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Lagonda

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 24, 2015
16,185
13,611
2,665
Beverly Hills, CA

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
14,423
2,516
1,448
Let me ask a really remedial question. High level inputs is also known as speaker level where the sub is connected via speaker wire from an external amp (as opposed to line level which means using interconnect cables)...yes? Furthermore, (to the point that a number of extremely experienced audiophiles here make), using an amp to drive the sub (again via speaker wire) that is an identical amp to the amp that is driving the mains means that the 'character' of the system from preamp to speakers (mains and sub) is uniform. Is that correct?

If so, that certainly seems like a very good starting ground...providing that the main speakers are not being driven by a 2 watt SET, while the sub requires 4500 watts to drive it!

Lloyd
 
  • Like
Reactions: sujay and Lagonda

Audiophile Bill

Well-Known Member
Mar 23, 2015
4,293
4,093
675
Also prefer high level inputs too. I have compared them a lot to low level in past 18 months.
 

DaveC

Industry Expert
Nov 16, 2014
3,899
2,142
495
Let me ask a really remedial question. High level inputs is also known as speaker level where the sub is connected via speaker wire from an external amp (as opposed to line level which means using interconnect cables)...yes? Furthermore, (to the point that a number of extremely experienced audiophiles here make), using an amp to drive the sub (again via speaker wire) that is an identical amp to the amp that is driving the mains means that the 'character' of the system from preamp to speakers (mains and sub) is uniform. Is that correct?

If so, that certainly seems like a very good starting ground...providing that the main speakers are not being driven by a 2 watt SET, while the sub requires 4500 watts to drive it!

Lloyd

Actually, the case of the 2W SET + 4500W sub amp is the ideal place to use high level as the characteristics of the 2W SET will be going to the sub amp... for better or worse! Hopefully you have very good OPTs... You're purposely introducing the character of the SET amp to make the subs sound more cohesive, which is the main idea behind using high level inputs.

In a lot of cases I don't think this matters as much. A clean sounding, low distortion SS amp on the mains wouldn't add much to the sound so in that case the difference may be minimal. Or if the sub amp sounds a lot like the main amp then it also wouldn't matter as much.

Another issue high level inputs potentially helps with is if the sub amps are low input impedance, which is common these days, and the preamp may not have enough current in it's output to ideally drive both the main amp and sub amp. It's not unusual for a main amp to have a 100k input impedance while a sub amp may have a 10k input impedance. A tube pre with an unbuffered output is a good example of a pre not ideally suited for driving modern sub amps.
 

musicfirst1

VIP/Donor
Mar 8, 2015
504
310
395
Canada
www.musicfirstdistribution.ca
  • Like
Reactions: sujay

Audiophile Bill

Well-Known Member
Mar 23, 2015
4,293
4,093
675
Actually, the case of the 2W SET + 4500W sub amp is the ideal place to use high level as the characteristics of the 2W SET will be going to the sub amp... for better or worse! Hopefully you have very good OPTs... You're purposely introducing the character of the SET amp to make the subs sound more cohesive, which is the main idea behind using high level inputs.

In a lot of cases I don't think this matters as much. A clean sounding, low distortion SS amp on the mains wouldn't add much to the sound so in that case the difference may be minimal. Or if the sub amp sounds a lot like the main amp then it also wouldn't matter as much.

Another issue high level inputs potentially helps with is if the sub amps are low input impedance, which is common these days, and the preamp may not have enough current in it's output to ideally drive both the main amp and sub amp. It's not unusual for a main amp to have a 100k input impedance while a sub amp may have a 10k input impedance. A tube pre with an unbuffered output is a good example of a pre not ideally suited for driving modern sub amps.

Hi Dave,

Yes you saved me writing. I am using such a thing: 1.25 watt SET and 500 watt Mosfet combination.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DaveC

Lagonda

VIP/Donor
Feb 3, 2014
3,501
4,800
1,255
Denmark
Actually, the case of the 2W SET + 4500W sub amp is the ideal place to use high level as the characteristics of the 2W SET will be going to the sub amp... for better or worse! Hopefully you have very good OPTs... You're purposely introducing the character of the SET amp to make the subs sound more cohesive, which is the main idea behind using high level inputs.

In a lot of cases I don't think this matters as much. A clean sounding, low distortion SS amp on the mains wouldn't add much to the sound so in that case the difference may be minimal. Or if the sub amp sounds a lot like the main amp then it also wouldn't matter as much.

Another issue high level inputs potentially helps with is if the sub amps are low input impedance, which is common these days, and the preamp may not have enough current in it's output to ideally drive both the main amp and sub amp. It's not unusual for a main amp to have a 100k input impedance while a sub amp may have a 10k input impedance. A tube pre with an unbuffered output is a good example of a pre not ideally suited for driving modern sub amps.
I have personally been unimpressed with both a VAC tube preamp and my volume controlled Io Eclipse when it came to driving subwoofer line outputs. I prefer the sound with a transparent SS pre.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DaveC

DaveC

Industry Expert
Nov 16, 2014
3,899
2,142
495
Hi Dave,

Yes you saved me writing. I am using such a thing: 1.25 watt SET and 500 watt Mosfet combination.

Yup, I have a 6W SET and about 600W of woofer amp. I use the output from my voltage amp, right before it hits my EL34s, so it's kind of halfway in between.

In general, if using a SET output I'd double check the OPTs are capable of good LF extension.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Audiophile Bill

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
14,423
2,516
1,448
Good to know on SET + massive amp for sub! Very interesting.
 

Audiophile Bill

Well-Known Member
Mar 23, 2015
4,293
4,093
675
Yup, I have a 6W SET and about 600W of woofer amp. I use the output from my voltage amp, right before it hits my EL34s, so it's kind of halfway in between.

In general, if using a SET output I'd double check the OPTs are capable of good LF extension.

Yeah my 1.25 watt Mayer monoblock have massive Tango OPTs so hopefully gonna be fine for the job. I have a flat 20hz in my room right now.

Left channel Mayer 1.25 watts top pic and 500 watt Mosfet bottom
3AA3FD91-6A6B-430A-AB8F-8D8EF25E4EF6.jpeg
92884D17-5725-4C0A-B715-0CBA7CD49C1B.jpeg
 
  • Like
Reactions: bonzo75 and DaveC

Mark Seaton

WBF Technical Expert (Speaker & Acoustics)
May 21, 2010
381
141
390
47
Chicago, IL
www.seatonsound.net
Yup, I have a 6W SET and about 600W of woofer amp. I use the output from my voltage amp, right before it hits my EL34s, so it's kind of halfway in between.

In general, if using a SET output I'd double check the OPTs are capable of good LF extension.

Along with concerns of getting the VLF extension from the tube amplifier output, we also have to consider output impedance of the amplifier as this is all that is damping the wired connection between the main speakers and the input of the subwoofer amplifier. It's easy to forget that if there is acoustic energy in the room and you don't have anything connected to the speaker terminals, the speakers, especially the woofers, act as an inefficient microphone which produces a Voltage across the open speaker terminals. With a very low impedance solid state amplifier connected and powered on, this will be damped rather effectively assuming you aren't using excessively long, tiny gauge speaker wires and separately run wire back to the amplifier. I have observed the rare case of bizarre behavior with low-watt tube amps driving speakers with powered subwoofer sections where the signal is jumpered at the speakers. The higher you have to set the gain of the subwoofer amp, the more of an issue this can be.

Personally I'm very resistant to the concept of connecting a loudspeaker in parallel with the input of a powerful subwoofer amplifier. I understand the convenience and conceptually common signal to both, but I would also point out that adding subwoofers gives us the freedom to separate our selection of amplifier, speakers, and the speakers' placement in the room from the need for powerful deep bass. If the subwoofer is a great performer, I don't see the benefit of adding another level of distortion if the preamplifier is capable of driving the amplifiers directly.

I think it's also important to realize that many of these suggestions came about when most were setting up subwoofers with their ears and possibly an SPL meter in hand. While still a common practice, there's no arguing it's hunting in the dark vs actually connecting a PC & microphone to address the major issues before fine tuning. It's harder to take suggestions of worthwhile differences or improvements seriously when very significant and highly audible integration issues have been skimmed past. Decades ago we thought most all ported speakers had to be sloppy and inarticulate, while a significant portion of flagship speakers are now ported. Things improved greatly when we were able to measure woofer parameters more accurately, simulate enclosures on a computer rather than a calculator, and it became more practical to measure the frequency response of speakers we design. In-room, in-system, subwoofer integration is still a bit of a black art in the hi-fi world, and is likely ripe to see some new tools and raise the level of expectations.
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,807
4,700
2,790
Portugal
High-level inputs are a convenience for many. Others don't want or need them.

Anyone can easily add high-level inputs to subs missing them - all that is needed are a few resistors, wires, connectors and a soldering wire.

Although I agree with Mark Seaton post above, we should remember that in audio the proof of the pudding is in the eating - I also have listened to excellent sound using high-level inputs.
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing