Bar Brawl

[spiritofmusic]

Are they still using your Zus for laser cutting metal sheets?

Uh, Oh, I think I see a billiard cue to the head in my future.

I'm chilled my friend, I'd refrain from using THAT amount of violence.

 

[Folsom]

So.. I’m listening to my system and I can’t help notice the low noise floor, black background.. Music does emerge from a dark quiet background. Does this mean natural Sound is forever banned from my system ?
My silly single stage amp is too quiet ? Do I need tube rush and transformer hum to get these natural attributes? Perhaps some added 60 cycle hum might help, Is it unnatural or just unusually Quiet compared to some.. isn’t that why we do all these power upgrades and mods..

How is it quiet if you can hear it?

 

[Mikem53]

How is it quiet if you can hear it?

The absence of a noise floor.. my bad

 

[cjfrbw]

I'm chilled my friend, I'd refrain from using THAT amount of violence.

I do listen to something 'Zu like' in Santa Cruz, now, at the smaller place. I stuck two Audio Nirvana 12 inch full range drivers @98db efficiency onto my shot apogee stage woofer magnet array and listen to them in open baffle arrangement. It took them forever to break in, but they sound really good now, with a pair of auxiliary subwoofers. They have some directivity, so I can listen to them fairly loud without disturbing the neighbors. The room is 11 feet by 11feet, and I use a 3 watt tube amp and it's plenty.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I know I'm settled w my Zu sound when I feel zero need to defend it. I've lived w two models for 13 years, current model heavily modded. I've listened to plenty intetesting out there, from a couple of exemplary horns, to some fantastic ribbons and stats, and some amazing multi driver box spkrs.
My optimised Zus are not embarrassed by any of these, and present such an all-round balance of attributes, that they still remain the ideal choice. For me and the rest of my current gear.
So in the past I was hugely defensive on Zu jibes...now I just smile to myself.
Pass me another bottle!

 

[jeff1225]

There are a lot more annoying people than him, and he even brought up some good, legitimate questions. But if some hyper sensitive crybabies wanted to have him banned, they certainly got want they wanted.

He was trolling hard asking the same exact questions over and over. Best way to handle a person like that is to ignore them.

 

[Folsom]

The absence of a noise floor.. my bad

Same difference

 

[Al M.]

He was trolling hard asking the same exact questions over and over. Best way to handle a person like that is to ignore them.

But were those questions ever answered? If not (and I don't think they were) then it is his right to keep asking them.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I will tonight, but it is so hot in CA I will have to run the AC to enjoy the music once I turn on the amps. . . .

I don't know where in California you are, but where I am in California it is in the 60s Fahrenheit in the evening. I absolutely hate hot weather, and I find 60s outside to occasion a very comfortable temperature inside.

Don't be a cheapskate. Turn on the air conditioning so you can enjoy your music.

 

[tima]

Don't be a cheapskate. Turn on the air conditioning so you can enjoy your music.

Maybe it's the noise not the money ?

 

[Ron Resnick]

Maybe it's the noise not the money ?

I am sure you are correct. My mistake!

One can run the air-conditioning to cold for a little while before one starts listening?

 

[Chop]

I believe Bonzo is suggesting a thread where those who have possibly contentious views can play in a spirit of ....enthusiastic debate. I'll play.
The following is with thanks to the help of 108CY / Mik at Unique Audio, His patience with me is greatly appreciated.


There is very very little on the web that isn't old news about SME 312S or V 12 tonearms. Lets get it out there at the start: IMO, this design from the 1980's is still very relevant today. They are hugely underrated compared to many more modern tonearms. They might be unfashionable, might "sound like Pepsi" compared to a 3012R, but IMO its impossible to generalise about a definitive house sound with this family of arms. The catch is that my perspective on how good they are is SO LONG AS you get a good specific example. They are hugely variable because they are such a complicated arm to build. Ask Mik.

Now, I'm cynical and deeply suspicious of shark hifi dealers. Bitter experience has toght me to trust my ears not what I'm told. Thanks to Mik's help I was able to listen to 4 312S, 2x SME 5 and an SME V12 over a long period of time. NONE OF THEM sounded the same. If I heard a house sound it was a general tendency to control and calmness with reasonable dynamics & low surface noise. Maybe a bit dark. That doesn't tell you much, so what?

Everything else was completely different from example to example. I heard everything from sat on and boring but powerful in the bass, to better and better examples adding openness and sound staging, clarity and power, micro dynamic pop and stunning dynamics. The end point is the aforementioned control and calmness + that lot.

I eventually bought a really good 312S in preference to a 5 or a V12. This replaced my Graham Phantom Supreme. My sample of the 312S is a bit better than the Graham for openness but leaves it whimpering in the gutter for dynamics, micro dynamics, separation, clarity, tonality and focus in the soundstage.
This analysis was with my Koetsu Urushi (which which admission on its own should see me banned by Bonzo ) and a Hana ML.

I've heard other Phantom's and a Glanz, I have a 3012R. No I haven't heard everything. I could say more but I'll leave it there.
I have put on my tin hat and I am running for the hills now...

 

[bonzo75]

Thanks Chop. However Koetsus I heard were quire poor on SME 3012r and SME v12. I have never heard a Koetsu sound good outside FR64s and 66s. I have also heard on one of the Graham elite and Schroeder CB. No haven't heard a glanz. Shakti had many koetsus when he had SME 3012r and FR 64s as well, and audioquattr had the urushi at one point that I heard. I forget the arm now. Btw, there is a very good urushi implementation near kings cross on an FR 66s, if you are ever in London, can hook you up

 

[Chop]

Thanks Chop. However Koetsus I heard were quire poor on SME 3012r and SME v12. I have never heard a Koetsu sound good outside FR64s and 66s. I have also heard on one of the Graham elite and Schroeder CB. No haven't heard a glanz. Shakti had many koetsus when he had SME 3012r and FR 64s as well, and audioquattr had the urushi at one point that I heard. I forget the arm now. Btw, there is a very good urushi implementation near kings cross on an FR 66s, if you are ever in London, can hook you up

Thanks, appreciate it.
About the "Koetsu's are poor on SME V12" comment. My reply would have to be "On which V12?" Like I said, the uncomfortable thing is that they all sound different.

Interesting that no one is arguing with me...

 

[bonzo75]

Thanks, appreciate it.
About the "Koetsu's are poor on SME V12" comment. My reply would have to be "On which V12?" Like I said, the uncomfortable thing is that they all sound different.

Interesting that no one is arguing with me...

That might be, I can't comment on

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thanks, appreciate it.
About the "Koetsu's are poor on SME V12" comment. My reply would have to be "On which V12?" Like I said, the uncomfortable thing is that they all sound different.

Interesting that no one is arguing with me...

What does Mik believe is the reason for this (to me, disturbing) sample-to-sample variation of these models of tonearms?

 

[marslo]

I will tonight, but it is so hot in CA I will have to run the AC to enjoy the music once I turn on the amps. Fortunately, I had solar installed a few years ago after I bought these Pass space heaters.

The same here today, +32C (+89 F)and AC on , electricity for free ( almost) from 30 kWp installation.
Instead of full tube as usual I switched to SS / hybrid design gear, a matter of less heat

 

[Ron Resnick]

The same here today, +32C and AC on , electricity for free ( almost) from 30 kWp installation.
Instead of full tube as ausual I switched to SS / hybrid design gear, a matter of less heat

Is the issue with the air conditioning the noise from the air conditioning system?

 

[marslo]

A bit - as we installed AC after the house was refurbished and for my 100 sqm living room a powerful unit was necessary.
For critical listening I would prefer to wait the evening and switch off AC. But for « siesta music » is ok.

 

[Chop]

What does Mik believe is the reason for this (to me, disturbing) sample-to-sample variation of these models of tonearms?

I think its a commercial viability thing. Ultimately, they complexity of the arm is the reason why SME have stopped making them. They could never make them well for a price which they could make money on.

As I understand it they were complex to build and took hours to set up to the optimum. Something to do with setting the bearings? I believe the people doing it were given a set time to build each arm, lets say a couple of hours. But you could spend much much longer, which wouldn't be = was never commercially viable. Some could have 30 hours + on them, and you can hear the difference.

But really, you need to speak to Mik on this topic. He surely must know more than almost anyone on the planet about these arms and the sound variations within them. After all, he still has literally hundreds and hundreds of them. If he positions his business at the bleeding edge of analogue audio you have to ask why he is still so big on SME's.