KeithR's "Dream Speaker" Search

[PeterA]

I would go even further that high quality high power amplification doesn’t exist.

Brad, I was recently told something very similar by a friend of mine.

 

[jeff1225]

Sure, some speakers make it easier. My Reference 3A Reflector speakers also make it *relatively* easy, even though they too are rather sensitive to disturbances that affect timbre. For example, a Pass B1 passive buffered preamp added a metallic character to the sound, which was removed by substitution with an Octave preamp that matches my Octave amp. I also had to pay renewed attention to the acoustics of my room upon acquiring the speakers, because the highly resolving sound reacted to and showed all the flaws, in a quite merciless manner, I should say.

My previous Reference 3A MM DeCapo BE monitors were much more forgiving, and much easier to make musically enjoyable. But the sound was also markedly less resolved, and musical engagement, enjoyable as it was, turned out to have been still on a substantially lower level than what I have now with my current speakers -- *after* thorough optimization of system environment and acoustics. Before that optimization, the older speakers were certainly "easier" to listen to.

The real question is: did you listen to the “easier” speakers longer. I had a pair of speakers that were hyper detailed. When I listened to them, I was amazing by what I heard. But….they were fatiguing and I’d listen to maybe 45 minutes at a time. My current system I listen to for hours at a time.

Keith had the same issue with his system, he found he was just not listening.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I would go even further that high quality high power amplification doesn’t exist.

I think this view proves too much. If one is originating the question with a low sensitivity speaker, then high power amplification is unavoidably required.

One may have the view that a low power SET amplifier is higher quality than a high power push-pull amplifier but that is merely a nice and academic question to an audiophile trying to drive his or her low sensitivity speakers.

 

[Al M.]

.Someone who wants to "hear every change, for better or worse" likely has implicitly adopted Objective 2) "reproduce exactly what is on the tape, vinyl or digital source being played."

Not quite, Ron, at least in my case. "Hearing every change, for better or for worse", is correlated with a system being more revealing. I bought a more revealing system than my old one because I wanted to hear more of the actual *music*.

As I have argued before, for several reasons it is impossible to know what exactly is on the recording. Even recording engineers can only know what is on it relative to their own playback equipment in their own studio acoustics. Yet there is no absolute reference for the neutrality of *that*. This topic is related to Sean Olive's "Circle of Confusion".

 

[Al M.]

Brad, I was recently told something very similar by a friend of mine.

Sure, like on all topics there are diverse opinions on this one as well.

 

[PeterA]

Sure, like on all topics there are diverse opinions on this one as well.

There are always opinions. The interesting thing is whether or not we ever reach consensus.

The strongest opinion these days seems to be that it all comes down to personal preferences and satisfaction with what one has. Each of us is on his own journey and it is all good.

 

[bonzo75]

Brad, I was recently told something very similar by a friend of mine.

David?

 

[morricab]

I think this view proves too much. If one is originating the question with a low sensitivity speaker, then high power amplification is unavoidably required.

One may have the view that a low power SET amplifier is higher quality than a high power push-pull amplifier but that is merely a nice and academic question to an audiophile trying to drive his or her low sensitivity speakers.

Yes, that is why I don’t think that you can get full sonic potential from a low sensitivity (or at least hard to drive) speaker. If by some magic a YG could be suitably driven by a good SET (or perhaps low power class A PP triode amp...maybe a couple other options like OTL or single ended transistor/hybrid) I think it would sound MUCH better than with what they seem to drivable with. Low sensitivity speakers are a big part of the problem...

 

[PeterA]

David?

David told me something similar in the context of Lamm amplifiers But I was actually thinking of two other people. There is also the often expressed opinion that FirstWatt amplifiers generally sound better than Pass Labs amplifiers.

Of course where is the other notion that more efficient and easier to drive speakers generally sound better than in efficient and difficult to drive speakers.

Keith’s speaker thread touches on this but there are of course different opinions and some exceptions. What do you think Bonzo?

 

[bonzo75]

David told me something similar in the context of Lamm amplifiers But I was actually thinking of two other people. There is also the often expressed opinion that FirstWatt amplifiers generally sound better than Pass Labs amplifiers.

Of course where is the other notion that more efficient and easier to drive speakers generally sound better than in efficient and difficult to drive speakers.

Keith’s speaker thread touches on this but there are of course different opinions and some exceptions. What do you think Bonzo?

There are extremely few good high efficiency speakers. Most sound quite poor. There are very few good full range horns, most of the good ones are custom by people using their knowledge of vintage. In modern speakers there is the odd efficient speaker like Devore which is quite good value for money, and while I prefer it to Wilson Alexandria of Magico M7 Mk11 it is more of the other speakers sounding bad than Devore being an all out assault. If you want to go all out it is nowhere close, and I like a Devore or a Tannoy as much as a well set up Martin Logan system which I believe sounds best with SS amps and a valve source.

So if I had to choose in modern for efficient speakers, there is an excellent range of horns in horns Universum, Anima, Trios that can be used with low watt amps (well not the lowest watt but still relatively low). They can be beaten on the ultimate by inefficient speakers. A good set up of Avalon, Zellaton, etc can equal, even surpass them. Heihei set up an excellent one with Audionet Stern and Heisenberg. Mike is a freak show. At Shakti's the old YG Anat with a class D amp was so much superior to the Zensati with the Airtight 211. Nothing to do with the amp, that speaker imo is poor. There are many awful speakers being bandied about on the forum in the guise of efficient speakers or as substitutes for the ultimate horns. Apogee is another speaker example that is good with solid state powerful amps.

Again, these good set ups of inefficient speakers can be beaten by efficient ones like a well done dual woofer FLH, but these are custom. For Cessaro you have to go really expensive and big room to get a full range speaker, the compromised ones are not as good as Devore, tannoy, or even a B&W standamount.

Most of average systems in small rooms where SS sounds bad is because they just mismatch, don't set it up and get it bright and harsh sounding. Then they simply replace the SS by a valve amp, roll it off and enjoy the colored harmonics. That is an easy and practical fix for the constrained audiophile, but not part of a what can be achieved discussion. Extremely good systems can be set up with powerful amps. Cost of set up discovery and room size requirements are usually higher.

The thing is in SS the upgrade never ends, with amps really getting better with price (not saying all expensive is better but irrespective of whether your choice is Dagostino, Dartzeel, or Audionet, you will have to go up the scale. Low watt amps don't have that constraint.

 

[PeterA]

There are extremely few good high efficiency speakers. Most sound quite poor. There are very few good full range horns, most of the good ones are custom by people using their knowledge of vintage. In modern speakers there is the odd efficient speaker like Devore which is quite good value for money, and while I prefer it to Wilson Alexandria of Magico M7 Mk11 it is more of the other speakers sounding bad than Devore being an all out assault. If you want to go all out it is nowhere close, and I like a Devore or a Tannoy as much as a well set up Martin Logan system which I believe sounds best with SS amps and a valve source.

So if I had to choose in modern for efficient speakers, there is an excellent range of horns in horns Universum, Anima, Trios that can be used with low watt speakers (well not the lowest watt but still relatively low). They can be beaten on the ultimate by inefficient speakers. A good set up of Avalon, Zellaton, etc can equal, even surpass them. Heihei set up an excellent one with Audionet Stern and Heisenberg. Mike is a freak show. At Shakti's the old YG Anat with a class D amp was so much superior to the Zensati with the Airtight 211. Nothing to do with the amp, that speaker imo is poor. There are many awful speakers being bandied about on the forum in the guise of efficient speakers or as substitutes for the ultimate horns. Apogee is another speaker example that is good with solid state powerful amps.

Again, these good set ups of inefficient speakers can be beaten by efficient ones like a well done dual woofer FLH, but these are custom. For Cessaro you have to go really expensive and big room to get a full range speaker, the compromised ones are not as good as Devore, tannoy, or even a B&W standamount.

Most of average systems in small rooms where SS sounds bad is because they just mismatch, don't set it up and get it bright and harsh sounding. Then they simply replace the SS by a valve amp, roll it off and enjoy the colored harmonics. That is an easy and practical fix for the constrained audiophile, but not part of a what can be achieved discussion. Extremely good systems can be set up with powerful amps. Cost of set up discovery and room size requirements are usually higher.

The thing is in SS the upgrade never ends, with amps really getting better with price (not saying all expensive is better but irrespective of whether your choice is Dagostino, Dartzeel, or Audionet, you will have to go up the scale. Low watt amps don't have that constraint.

You surely have more experience and stronger opinions than most Bonzo. It seems you are prioritizing the speaker first, then the amp. Some others prioritize the amp and then find a matching speaker. Yours seems the prevailing approach. I followed that approach too for many years with my former inefficient speaker brands, but now I am not so sure. My current system is based around a speaker/amp pairing which does not prioritize one over the other. They were bought as a package. I wanted the amp/speaker and needed an appropriate speaker/amp.

 

[bonzo75]

You surely have more experience and stronger opinions than most Bonzo. It seems you are prioritizing the speaker first, then the amp. Some others prioritize the amp and then find a matching speaker. Yours seems the prevailing approach. I followed that approach too for many years with my former inefficient speaker brands, but now I am not so sure. My current system is based around a speaker/amp pairing which does not prioritize one over the other. They were bought as a package. I wanted the amp/speaker and needed an appropriate speaker/amp.

With your former inefficient speakers I would prioritize a change - they really are zero benchmarks to make a judgement in this regard.

I don't see how mine is a stronger opinion than saying a that SS amps don't work. I am liking both efficient and inefficient at various levels of budget and room constraints. There is more than one type of solution out there.

 

[Lagonda]

You surely have more experience and stronger opinions than most Bonzo. It seems you are prioritizing the speaker first, then the amp. Some others prioritize the amp and then find a matching speaker. Yours seems the prevailing approach. I followed that approach too for many years with my former inefficient speaker brands, but now I am not so sure. My current system is based around a speaker/amp pairing which does not prioritize one over the other. They were bought as a package. I wanted the amp/speaker and needed an appropriate speaker/amp.

Personally i believe the best pairing is when the speakers manufacturer builds a amp specifically to drive the speaker, if they have the technical know how and manufacturing capabilities ! Brad loves his little speakers and Spanish tube amps, but large systems that still have good dynamics can do somethings in a grander scale and still sound believable with the proper SS amps.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ooh, maybe Meridian actives, Milan? With the space advantage of all-in-one boxes as well.
I know the M10 actives w 207Pro cdp was my dream system in mid/late 80s. And just three boxes, the cdp/pre and spkrs/amps.

 

[Lagonda]

Ooh, maybe Meridian actives, Milan? With the space advantage of all-in-one boxes as well.
I know the M10 actives w 207Pro cdp was my dream system in mid/late 80s. And just three boxes, the cdp/pre and spkrs/amps.

Yes wonderful creations with built in obsolete a/d and d/a converters !

 

[spiritofmusic]

We all become obsolete in the long run, some of us sooner than others.

 

[Al M.]

The real question is: did you listen to the “easier” speakers longer. I had a pair of speakers that were hyper detailed. When I listened to them, I was amazing by what I heard. But….they were fatiguing and I’d listen to maybe 45 minutes at a time. My current system I listen to for hours at a time.

Keith had the same issue with his system, he found he was just not listening.

No, I never had that problem. I was always addicted to listening to music on my new system for hours on end. I could easily listen through the initial nasties and to the music, because the presentation of the music was so exciting to me. My audiophile friends were complaining more. On the other hand, I started to adopt some of their sensitivities and improved my system accordingly towards less and less distortion, a large amount of which was really induced more by adverse room interactions and reflections within the room than anything else.

I am still thoroughly addicted to listening to my system for hours on end, but now with the "nicest", lowest distortion sound that I have ever had. Recently changing my shot power tubes (after 5000 hours of burn time) for new ones was beneficial as well . Way better than my old system with my old speakers in *every* way.

Not that it's a perfect sound -- no system is -- but it's heaven to me.

 

[morricab]

Personally i believe the best pairing is when the speakers manufacturer builds a amp specifically to drive the speaker, if they have the technical know how and manufacturing capabilities ! Brad loves his little speakers and Spanish tube amps, but large systems that still have good dynamics can do somethings in a grander scale and still sound believable with the proper SS amps.

My speakers are not small and the do scale quite well with out plutonium reactor amps. They have a 10 inch horn loaded mid\bass and compression driver tweeter in a solid wood horn. They are 130 cm tall... Not exactly bookshelf speakers. They will put with 40 watts what yours will with more than 10x that power.Oh and the amps aren't Spanish... Please don't misrepresent my system, which you most certainly haven't heard anywhere else. I have heard your exact speakers and amps several times so I have a good idea of what you are hearing...

 

[Lagonda]

My speakers are not small and the do scale quite well with out plutonium reactor amps. They have a 10 inch horn loaded mid\bass and compression driver tweeter in a solid wood horn. They are 130 cm tall... Not exactly bookshelf speakers. They will put with 40 watts what yours will with more than 10x that power.Oh and the amps aren't Spanish... Please don't misrepresent my system, which you most certainly haven't heard anywhere else. I have heard your exact speakers and amps several times so I have a good idea of what you are hearing...

Are they the Dynamikks from your home page ? No i have definitely not heard them anywhere ! I doubt you have heard the speaker combination i use, 16 12 inch paper sub drivers do change the sound a little. The plutonium reactor amps are not big electricity consumers, and are Greta Thunberg approved for their green footprint. Wow your amps are from Cyprus ! Never heard of anything being made in Cyprus before, except maybe olive oil !

 

[PeterA]

Personally i believe the best pairing is when the speakers manufacturer builds a amp specifically to drive the speaker, if they have the technical know how and manufacturing capabilities ! Brad loves his little speakers and Spanish tube amps, but large systems that still have good dynamics can do somethings in a grander scale and still sound believable with the proper SS amps.

pass Labs developed a expensive speaker called the Rushmore which had built-in amplifiers. I don’t think dealers liked it because they then couldn’t sell separates to clients.