Power cords, a trip into the unknown!

DonH50

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Jun 22, 2010
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Hi Don,

What makes transformers buzz mechanically? I've always been curious about that.

TIA

Jack

I am no transformer expert. There has been much made about d.c. as in the article frank provided, but there are other reasons and I have no idea which is most prevalent. Fundamentally they all relate to some sort of effect whereby mechanical vibration is induced by the EM (electromagnetic) field of the transformer. Here are a few off-the-cuff thoughts, which may or may not be true, and in any event I doubt any are worded terribly rigorously, in random order:

1. Might as well acknowledge the d.c. issue first. The idea is that a relatively small d.c. current "uses up" transformer headroom and causes the core to saturate early. I am not at all sure I buy it, but it is not something I have thought a lot about. (In fact, none of this is something I have thought a lot about.) A transformer depends upon a.c. current flow creating an alternating magnetic field that induces current flow in the other winding. Magnetic flux can lead to mechanical movement, and as the core saturates it becomes asymmetric, fields no longer cancel, and buzzing can be induced. D.c. current does not alternate, causing a sort of "offset" that uses up some of the core's dynamic range. Other causes...

2. Asymmetry in the current flow which may come about due to d.c., input (line) imbalance, or load (diodes and filtering) imbalance.

3. Overloading the core (drawing too much power) -- this causes severe hysteresis and subsequent high harmonics and core imbalance.

4. Excessive heat reduces magnetism in most materials and leads to early saturation of the core, which causes harmonics and makes it more likely to buzz.

5. High harmonic content induced by overload, the power rectifiers reflecting back into the transformer, etc.

6. The magnetic and electrical fields are varying 60 times a second and are 90 degrees "out of phase". Sometimes the glue holding the wire (windings) and/or core (typically laminated thin metal pieces built into a thick core) gets old and dry and cracks, or is defective from the factory, allowing wires and/or core to shift during operation and produce a buzzing sound.

7. Those same EM fields cause normal mechanical stress; if you put your hand a hard-working transformer, even if it is silent, you can fell it vibrating. If the transformer is not either isolating (e.g. by rubber bushings) or solidly mounted to a heavy chassis you can hear some mechanical buzzing.

8. An external magnetic field can disrupt transformer operation; I consider this very unlikely but had already typed "8" and didn't want to end on an odd number. :)

The key point is that a transformer always has electrical and magnetic fields going so the potential for buzzing is always there; well-designed transformers and their mounts reduce it to inaudibility, and poor design and/or high asymmetric loads can make them hum, buzz, whine, sizzle, and generally misbehave.

HTH - Don

p.s. I did not mention ground loops as that is a separate issue. A power cord change should not do anything to the transformer itself, but as JN has noted can change the system ground paths. Most of us think a transformer breaks a ground loop, but in practice the safety ground is typically connected to the chassis and so is the transformer's case and core. Many designs lift the input signal (not power) ground with a low-value resistor right at the input, before the first gain stage, to reduce the chance of incoming signal mixing with the power ground (the resistor makes the return path through the power ground too high in impedance) and thus reducing the ground loop to inaudibility. More or less (JN will probably correct my loose and imprecise verbiage, but I'm tired tonight).
 

j_n

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Nov 18, 2011
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I'm sure the hum/buzz is originating from the power transformer as you can plainly hear it when you get your ear next to the top of the amp.
Oh, that's different.

Cables won't fix that. Either there are laminations loose or the chassis is flexing from the external field of the transformer. If you touch the chassis neat the xfmr and the sound changes it may be the chassis itself. If not, my guess is the lams.

To answer another question...transformer laminations go through physical stresses as a result of the magnetic field being imposed on them. Magnetostriction is a term which defines this. Some materials will shrink a tad along the magnetic flux lines. Pure nickel for example, is very good at this, so can be used as a magnetic "motor" in an ultrasonic stylus. Since the laminations are being pushed about at a 120 hz rate, any looseness in the lamination stack can buzz.

If the transformer is a toroid, sometimes mounting hardware is accidentally put through the center and forms a shorted secondary, if a poor connection, it too can buzz.

Cheers, jn
 

j_n

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Nov 18, 2011
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@J_N ..Welcome to the WBF ...
Thank you. My apologies for starting out too strong earlier, I looked at what I posted in response to you and really was unhappy with my written demeanor..sorry about that. I blame the yap yap dogs on another forum for constantly nipping at my ankles..

Cheers, jn
 

j_n

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Nov 18, 2011
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(JN will probably correct my loose and imprecise verbiage, but I'm tired tonight).

Moi??

Shirley you jest....

I've always questioned that DC thingy. My house is fed from an autotransformer on the pole, and I really can't see how the system could put dc against my in the house transformers..

Oh, e-core xfmrs also may have threaded rods through holes in the lams at final assembly, and if they form conductive loops, can also give problems..

Cheers, jn
 

andy_c

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Sep 24, 2010
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1. Might as well acknowledge the d.c. issue first. The idea is that a relatively small d.c. current "uses up" transformer headroom and causes the core to saturate early. I am not at all sure I buy it, but it is not something I have thought a lot about. (In fact, none of this is something I have thought a lot about.) A transformer depends upon a.c. current flow creating an alternating magnetic field that induces current flow in the other winding. Magnetic flux can lead to mechanical movement, and as the core saturates it becomes asymmetric, fields no longer cancel, and buzzing can be induced. D.c. current does not alternate, causing a sort of "offset" that uses up some of the core's dynamic range.

Here's a bit more info from the book Fundamentals of Power Electronics by Erickson and Maksimovic.

A simplified model of the transformer that only includes the magnetizing inductance Lm as a non-ideal element is shown below.



The equations for the magnetizing current and its corresponding core flux density are as below.



v1(t) is the primary voltage, n1 is the number of primary turns, Ac is the cross-sectional area of the core, and B(t) is the core flux density as a function of time. The above equations assume linear operation. Saturation occurs when the core flux density B(t) reaches its maximum value. You can see that because B(t) relates to the integral of v1(t) with respect to time, any DC component of v1(t) will cause B(t) to ramp up (or down), eventually reaching its saturation limit.
 

amirm

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Apr 2, 2010
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Is this the inside picture Mark?


If the sound is mechanical from the transformer, then tightening the screws that hold it might do some good. Given how cramped it is though, I wouldn't recommend doing it if you are not handy with such things. But definitely worth a try. Other tricks can be applied like putting rubber under or around the mounting area.
 

garylkoh

WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
Sep 6, 2010
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If it's a mechanical hum, you might also see if running it upside-down helps. Hanging the transformer sometimes changes the vibration pattern, which can then be damped. Another way I reduce mechanical hum from a transformer is to put one spike directly under the bolt that secures the transformer, and then balance the amp using squash balls. This used to work for me when I had a Classe amp back home in Singapore.
 

amirm

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Gary, I would be worried about using a power amp upside down. That unit seems pretty symmetrical but the driver stage and such may overheat that way leading to shorter life. But as a test, it would be a fine thing to try for a short period.
 

j_n

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Nov 18, 2011
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..... any DC component of v1(t) will cause B(t) to ramp up (or down), eventually reaching its saturation limit.

Agreed. This is certainly how our superconducting magnets work. For our room temp magnets, there is the constraint of Rs in the winding of the magnet.

For an amplifier in the home, the utility transformer secondary, the feed wires from the pole to the load panel, the breaker, and the romex to the outlet set some serious limitations on how far off center the line can push a core. Given the pole autotransformer impedance as viewed by the consumer, it would take some VERY serious asymmetry in draw to make a significant difference at the amp.

That's why I question that concern..

Cheers, jn
 

microstrip

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May 30, 2010
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Perhaps someone referred to it, and I missed it, but sometimes transformers make noise just because the mains voltage is too high (and power intake increases accordingly). I had this problem with a Jeff Rowland amplifier - at 225 V it was quite silent and hummed a lot at 235V. But very often the mechanical noise is due to either DC or mains harmonics - the very expensive Burmeister 948 power conditioner, that suppressed mains DC, solved these problems almost every time.

You can look at the spectrum of your mains easily. Get any power transformer and prepare a probe making a turn or two with insulated wire around the core (easier to do with a toroidal transformer) connect the two ends to the ground and signal terminals of a jack plug. Connect the plug to the line input of a sound card, and using any free spectrometer software you can look at the spectra of your mains in safety.

BTW, if the buz changes with time, most probably is due to mains.
 

garylkoh

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Gary, I would be worried about using a power amp upside down. That unit seems pretty symmetrical but the driver stage and such may overheat that way leading to shorter life. But as a test, it would be a fine thing to try for a short period.

That's true, although from the picture of the Krell, all the output devices seem to be fastened to the heatsinks on the outside. I would be extremely careful about running a tube amp upside down though (but I have tried!).

I've mentioned this before, but something like a Noise Sniffer will give you a great idea of what garbage there is in the power.
 

DonH50

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Jun 22, 2010
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So, even a few mV of offset will eventually saturate the core? I did not realize that (or forgot, more likely; been several decades since my power electronics class). Perhaps the fact that any signal coupling transformers I have designed use air or a dielectric core, non-ferrous, helps? INteresting, thanks guys.

I do have to think if it were a serious concern everybody would put a big cap in series with the power line. That would introduce a host of other issues, naturally...
 

mep

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Apr 20, 2010
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My bold... Are you saying it is a mechanical/physical buzz from the transformer/chassis itself? Moving cords and rerouting power will not fix that. If that's the case, you either need a new transformer, or better isolation of the transformer's mass (usually accomplished with little rubber/plastic donuts). That is a design issue, not a consumer issue...

According to Ray from Krell's service department, the transformer will buzz if it's current starved. Joe Abrams from MIT cable fame says it can be caused by a Power Factor problem even though there is plenty of current available from the 20A circuit.
 

mep

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Apr 20, 2010
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@mep

It could be interesting to bring all the ground in your system to the same potential.. Different ground potentials (voltage if you will) do tend to allow those "ground loops". If plugging the preamp and amp on the same circuit eliminates the hum, then this is an indication of your various grounds at different potential .. Using a 4th wire to link the ground usually works very well in these situations. I don't know if that is against (US) codes but I do think that is allowed for server rooms in Data Center Electric infrastructures.

I am not sure that changing power cords would change this however ...

@J_N ..Welcome to the WBF ...

Frantz-I have a copper bus bar with holes drilled and tapped for machine screws so that I can attach ground wires from all my components and then run another wire from the copper block to the screw on the outlet where the KBL is plugged in (that idea came from Roger). I tried running a wire from the KSA-250 to the bus bar and it didn't help with the hum/buzz problem. Ray from Krell is sending me a 20 PC for the KSA-250 to see if that fixes the problem. If not, Joe Abrams is going to send me a MIT Z-Trap which Joe thinks will fix the problem.

I can't hear the hum/buzz from my listening position, it's just when I walk up between my speakers to change LPs or change tapes or change the selector switch on the KBL that I hear it. And it does annoy me because it shouldn't be there.
 

mep

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Apr 20, 2010
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Is this the inside picture Mark?


If the sound is mechanical from the transformer, then tightening the screws that hold it might do some good. Given how cramped it is though, I wouldn't recommend doing it if you are not handy with such things. But definitely worth a try. Other tricks can be applied like putting rubber under or around the mounting area.

Amir-Yep, that's the one. I have already taken the top off and checked the mounting bolts and they are tight. That power transformer weighs 85 lbs.
 

andy_c

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Sep 24, 2010
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I do have to think if it were a serious concern everybody would put a big cap in series with the power line. That would introduce a host of other issues, naturally...

Did you read the article that Frank posted a link to? That diode/cap circuit in the article is straight out of the Bryston designs. Schematics of almost all the Bryston amplifiers are available here.
 

j_n

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Nov 18, 2011
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Amir-Yep, that's the one. I have already taken the top off and checked the mounting bolts and they are tight. That power transformer weighs 85 lbs.

Does it buzz with the lid off?

jn
 

mep

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Apr 20, 2010
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Does it buzz with the lid off?

jn

I haven't tried running the amp with the lid off. If you think it could matter, I will give it a try.
 

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