What SPECIFICALLY is better or different about the Wadax Design? How do these design choices manifest in better sound?

[Audiocrack]

View attachment 96432
HK Audio Show this coming weekend.

Will you pay a visit, Howie? Apparently they are going to play with the dedicated PSU of the server as well and that is interesting because - as far as I know - not many are available yet.

 

[Carlos269]

The Reference DAC incorporates full MQA decoding, is compatible with DSD up to DSD256, and PCM up to 384khz/32bit. It means Wadax DAC can decode max 384khz/32bit files, not to be upsampled to 352kHz or 384kHz like you said.

"Atlantis DAC preserves the type of audio coding that is provided by the digital audio source from beggining to end. PCM are played natively, as well as DSD are played natively. This ensures the original properties are preserved and the time base is also kept. The dual frequency clock structure of the clocking system supplies the correct frequency for each type of track so synchronous native conversion is preserved. Most High-End industry converters transcode DSD to PCM before conversion, since the DAC circuitry on-board are multi-bit type."

Please do not misinterpret Wadax's functions. Many people don't understand Wadax will go along with you and commit other mistakes.

I’m not misrepresenting anything, you are. Here it is, you and others can read it for yourself in the technical description at the end of the attached document. I will be waiting for you to take your foot out of your mouth.

 

[Carlos269]

I’m not misrepresenting anything, you are. Here it is, you and others can read it for yourself in the technical description at the end of the attached document. I will be waiting for you to take your foot out of your mouth.

Furthermore, It is obvious that Wadax cannot convert DSD natively and apply their “feed forward“ musIC “correction” in the digital domain; and maintain the “native“ DSD stream for digital to analog conversion.

 

[Stereophonic]

You are entering the realm of “alternative facts” so let’s clear a few things up. The Wadax Reference Dac has to stay bit perfect at its input to be able to decode or “unfold” MQA, ok I get that; with HQPLAYER you allow Roon Core to do the unfolding before the HQPLAYER process. But then after unfolding or decoding the PCM stream is upsampled to 352kHz or 384kHz to apply the musIC “feed forward“ “correction”…are you following me?

You see the $2.50 (two dollars and 50 cents) Texas Instruments (TI)/Burr-Brown (BB) dac chip inside the Wadax Reference Dac doesn’t care if that upsampled 352/384KHz comes form the musIC chip on its board or from an HQPLAYER server a continent away. It makes no difference if that PCM stream is native or upsampled to the dac chip.

Now let’s peel more of the Wadax onion and expose some more information: in the Wadax Reference Dac specification it states that it accepts DSD on its USB input up to a DSD256 rate, but all the internal processing with the “musIC” and “feed forward” “correction” (look up table) is done in PCM; therefore all DSD is converted to PCM internally in the Wadax. Are you following me? And more importantly, do you see where I’m going with this? Or are you ready for the wack-a-mole moment?

There is so much signal processing going on in the Wadax Reference Dac that to mislead people into thinking that is a bit perfect dac is laughable; that is even before the purported use of the mini-DSP core inside the TI/Burr-Brown dac chip. To think that on a dac this costly the emphasis would be on MQA, go figure.

Ok. Let’s clear a few things:

• It seems you like HQP as many people and that is fine.
• HQP only works in Server so it hasn’t any process in the Dac.
• Wadax Servers support HQP for people as you which like to play with more variables.
• I have my Atlantis Server and Dac from 2017 and as every Wadax user i know, it sounds better without HQP.
• Maybe it works with other brands, not with Wadax.
• I play from both Tidal and Qobuz. I don’t like what MQA does in some recordings and i like more Qobuz, so you are wrong with my MQA emphasis. It was only an example
• I like to know some technical info, but in the end i don’t care about it, sound is what matters.
• Excuse me, but you are completely wrong with Wadax technology. It seems you doesn’t understand how feedforward works and i’m not going to explain it again. You would have to be more humble and don’t take your own conclusions only seeing components in a picture.
• musIC processor is only a piece of a very complex design where everything matters.
• If you focus your attention only in processing you are missing a lot of variables that explains Wadax stunning sound.
• Have you ever listened any Wadax setup?
Have you done your tests with it? I doubt it…
• You feel mislead by Wadax. Ok. I understand it based in your wrong conception of how Wadax works and more important, how it sounds.
• Solution is very easy, forget Wadax but please stop posting confusing and wrong opinions about something you don’t know how has been designed and the final work of each component.
• You can continue laughing with Wadax users like me. I’m very happy enjoying music experience by Wadax misleading. Maybe someday i’ll reach your God level knowledge and will buy your better design…
• Best wishes hoping one day you will exit from your own bucle…

 

[Stereophonic]

Another day we could talk about DC power cables.
Really a step up in SQ !!!!

 

[Carlos269]

Ok. Let’s clear a few things:

• It seems you like HQP as many people and that is fine.
• HQP only works in Server so it hasn’t any process in the Dac.
• Wadax Servers support HQP for people as you which like to play with more variables.
• I have my Atlantis Server and Dac from 2017 and as every Wadax user i know, it sounds better without HQP.
• Maybe it works with other brands, not with Wadax.
• I play from both Tidal and Qobuz. I don’t like what MQA does in some recordings and i like more Qobuz, so you are wrong with my MQA emphasis. It was only an example
• I like to know some technical info, but in the end i don’t care about it, sound is what matters.
• Excuse me, but you are completely wrong with Wadax technology. It seems you doesn’t understand how feedforward works and i’m not going to explain it again. You would have to be more humble and don’t take your own conclusions only seeing components in a picture.
• musIC processor is only a piece of a very complex design where everything matters.
• If you focus your attention only in processing you are missing a lot of variables that explains Wadax stunning sound.
• Have you ever listened any Wadax setup?
Have you done your tests with it? I doubt it…
• You feel mislead by Wadax. Ok. I understand it based in your wrong conception of how Wadax works and more important, how it sounds.
• Solution is very easy, forget Wadax but please stop posting confusing and wrong opinions about something you don’t know how has been designed and the final work of each component.
• You can continue laughing with Wadax users like me. I’m very happy enjoying music experience by Wadax misleading. Maybe someday i’ll reach your God level knowledge and will buy your better design…
• Best wishes hoping one day you will exit from your own bucle…

I posted the document with the technical description of what is going on inside the Wadax for you and others to read. It is the only real technical information that I have found. You know when those in the technical world achieve something ground breaking or that advances the science, technology, or industry, they typically present a white paper to the Audio Engineering Society (AES). I searched the AES files for Wadax presentations and here is what I found:





So what am I missing?

And for the record, the benefits of HQPLAYER are negated if there is any additional processing done inside the dac. Jussi has written about this extensively. The Wadax Reference Dac just isn’t a good dac to use with HQPLAYER, sorry.

 

[Steve Vu]

I’m not misrepresenting anything, you are. Here it is, you and others can read it for yourself in the technical description at the end of the attached document. I will be waiting for you to take your foot out of your mouth.

Do you hear Native Wadax Reference Link? And do you know how to use the Optical port of Wadax Ref Dac and Server?

You only try to find every thing to belittle Wadax products while you don't know anything about Wadax. That's a shame.

 

[howiebrou]

Will you pay a visit, Howie? Apparently they are going to play with the dedicated PSU of the server as well and that is interesting because - as far as I know - not many are available yet.

I will but it is likely to be very crowded so may not be the best place to investigate.

 

[wil]

You know when those in the technical world achieve something ground breaking or that advances the science, technology, or industry, they typically present a white paper to the Audio Engineering Society (AES). I searched the AES files for Wadax presentations and here is what I found:

Carlos, you seem to be implying that unless an audio designer, who claims to have an innovative design or product, fails to present a white paper to the AES that they are somehow suspect?

I don't see anything coming up on the AES search for HQ Player or Jussi Laako. Nothing either from Marcel van de Gevel as well which you state as the designer responsible for "perhaps the most innovative dac design in the last 30 years."

 

[Audiocrack]

I will but it is likely to be very crowded so may not be the best place to investigate.

Audio shows are in my view (almost) never the best place to investigate audio equipment but ideally it will give you some idea about the potential of the various audio components. So hopefully you get some idea how the 5 piece Wadax reference dac and server - three head units and two PSU’s - perform.

 

[Elliot G.]

View attachment 96432
HK Audio Show this coming weekend.

Cherck out the Sovereign subs with the Marquis it sounded great in Munich Howie.

 

[Audiocrack]

I posted the document with the technical description of what is going on inside the Wadax for you and others to read. It is the only real technical information that I have found. You know when those in the technical world achieve something ground breaking or that advances the science, technology, or industry, they typically present a white paper to the Audio Engineering Society (AES). I searched the AES files for Wadax presentations and here is what I found:



View attachment 96435

So what am I missing?

And for the record, the benefits of HQPLAYER are negated if there is any additional processing done inside the dac. Jussi has written about this extensively. The Wadax Reference Dac just isn’t a good dac to use with HQPLAYER, sorry.

Carlos 269, what do you actually wanna achieve in this forum? Damaging the Wadax brand? Proving that you are right with your criticism? Urging people not to buy any Wadax component? Urging happy owners to sell their Wadax equipment because of your ‘techno babbling’? All seem to me a completely waste of (your as well as our) time.

 

[wil]

Every now and then a person who does know how the magic trick is done weighs in.
what puzzles me is at what point does one pack up there 3 card Monty table and go home ?
digital is an endless game of manipulation, some we like while others hate it.
i get at high prices one must feel things are special but the smart ones know when to let it go lol. The udder ones keep pushing waiting for the turn in the trick.
madness is what the udder ones might be feeling.
go to ps audio and ask them what magic they use

Al, are you meaning to imply that you believe all high priced dac manufacturers are playing a game of "3 card Monty"? Or are you reserving your commentary for Wadax only? And if so, what makes Wadax more deserving of suspicion than MSB, DCS, EMM, Nagra, Aries Cerat, Lampi....?

 

[Carlos269]

Do you hear Native Wadax Reference Link? And do you know how to use the Optical port of Wadax Ref Dac and Server?

You only try to find every thing to belittle Wadax products while you don't know anything about Wadax. That's a shame.

I’m not alone:

Wadax discussion by audio forum members with technical backgrounds

Carlos, you seem to be implying that unless an audio designer, who claims to have an innovative design or product, fails to present a white paper to the AES that they are somehow suspect?

I don't see anything coming up on the AES search for HQ Player or Jussi Laako. Nothing either from Marcel van de Gevel as well which you state as the designer responsible for "perhaps the most innovative dac design in the last 30 years."

Attached please find Marcel van de Gevel’s white paper. It provides details, diagrams, graphs and formulas, expertly written and submitted to AES.
This is what you expect from novel and ground breaking designs and achievements. They need to stand up to peer review.

Carlos 269, what do you actually wanna achieve in this forum? Damaging the Wadax brand? Proving that you are right with your criticism? Urging people not to buy any Wadax component? Urging happy owners to sell their Wadax equipment because of your ‘techno babbling’? All seem to me a completely waste of (your as well as our) time.

Audio forums are for learning and discussion. That’s all. Just want to discuss and perhaps, myself and others will learn a thing or two. That’s all, no agenda besides education and discovery.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Carlos will keep pumping this as long as we engage.

Wadax is his perfect target.

 

[Audiocrack]

I think you are right, Mike. So - indeed - better to totally ignore his ‘techno provocations’.

 

[microstrip]

Caesar opened the Pandora box with the thread tittle and Wadax owners you could not resist going inside the tornado ...

IMHO the real point is that no one really knows what "feedforward" means in the context of the Wadax. Consequently it is being used mainly as a marketing term, and the WADAX people are not interested in technical discussions.

Although I have an idea from the few dCS explanations, I also do not know exactly what has been done in the APEX Vivaldi. But I now know how it sounds, it is what matters most, although I am curious to see the measurements someday.

 

[Carlos269]

Wadax is his perfect target.

And why is that?

I think you are right, Mike. So - indeed - better to totally ignore his ‘techno provocations’.

I assume that you like the sound and it doesn’t matter what is going on inside, but many of us want to know more specially of a product with this price tag. You can ignore me all you want, that will not change the facts. No one wants to be a sucker, but if you are wearing the sign on your back, don’t you want some one to tell you and clue you in? Or would you rather stay in the dark?

I’m not asking questions and trying to better understand the Wadax with you or Mike in mind, I’m doing it for myself, out of technical curiosity. Hopefully that gives you some insight into my motivation here. I’m not alone in wondering why the owners are praising the Wadax and I’m trying to understand what makes it special, if it really is, and yes, if it’s price tag is justified. Part of being an ethical engineer deals with pricing, business practices, and business ethics.

 

[Stereophonic]

IMHO the real point is that no one really knows what "feedforward" means in the context of the Wadax. Consequently it is being used mainly as a marketing term, and the WADAX people are not interested in technical discussions.

Although I have an idea from the few dCS explanations, I also do not know exactly what has been done in the APEX Vivaldi. But I now know how it sounds, it is what matters most, although I am curious to see the measurements someday.

So as you don’t know what feedforward means it is a marketing term, but you don’t know what Apex means and sound is what matters….

Hilarious…

 

[microstrip]

So as you don’t know what feedforward means it is a marketing term, but you don’t know what Apex means and sound is what matters….

Hilarious…

Why such arrogance, bordering the insult, in this forum?

Surely I have known what feedforward means for more than forty years ... I am addressing the use of feedforward in a digital product. Devialet uses it in their amplifiers and explains how they use it.

My point is that feedforward is a common word in electronics - unless we are given details, it is just marketing.

My apologies, I will try to be constructive and I will not enter your style.