What SPECIFICALLY is better or different about the Wadax Design? How do these design choices manifest in better sound?
- Thread starter caesar
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i'm a fan of HQ Player. it's legit. but it's simply one choice of various solutions.
Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème
Yes you can. This 80km model is indeed the best “sounding“ one of all those I compared. I did not try using attenuation. So thank you for the tip Carlos! Hi Emile, I could only test 5 db attns from RiteAV on both ends and the green best the blue in my system. Don't know exactly why, but may be...
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You're mistaken to think I have a "problem" with HQPlayer, I love the sound it provides with my digital setup including the Aqua LinQ and Formula xHD DAC, I haven't found anything better yet. Also, I find it comical how you pick the negative reviews of the Aqua while omitting the positive. You must be fun a parties.
As a simple data point a few folks who own / owned the Formula DAC include Mike L. and Emile from Taiko.
Thanks for the conversation, entertaining.
no big deal either way. Emile is never a bad choice.It hasn’t been a good idea introducing Emile opinion…
no one is being critical. some just like a fight even when there is not one.
I use HQ Player, but I don't use the filters. My server is based more on keep it quiet. HQ player is intense processing. That creates its own noise that has to be mitigated. A 24/192 or 24/96, or just native PCM 44.1 sounds very good when you leave it alone. I bet a bunch of filters in the right server make a "enhanced" sound that the listener may or may not like.
We all talk to people. We all hear how people go through phases. Did this for a while, then that. Its how we learn what we like. Someone can talk over you all day, but until you hear it, you just don't know.
We all talk to people. We all hear how people go through phases. Did this for a while, then that. Its how we learn what we like. Someone can talk over you all day, but until you hear it, you just don't know.
DSP means modify recording. Doing it on the server doesn't make any sense. What do you change and why? HQ Player only makes one thing: change format. From an origin to a destination, in an adjustable way.
And why do you want to convert from one format to another? The settings are basically the attenuation slopes of the anti-alias filters, the noise-shaping curves, etc. This task only needs to be performed within a DAC. And the parameters must be adjusted for a specific DAC, depending on the chip it uses and many other elements that only the DAC manufacturer knows.
And there is only one optimal fit that is determined analytically during the DAC design process.
Therefore, modifying the audio file may have some of the fun for the user, but it is really analogous to inserting a digital equalizer between the server and the DAC hoping to fine tune the sound. Wadax approach is different: integrity and maximum likelihood with respect to the original.
Wadax apply feedforward to the input signal, modifying the content. This modification is done in such a way that it compensates for the non-linearities of the DAC, the rear analog section and the output stage. That is, knowing the transfer function they can determine the error introduced and make a compensation so that the error is cancelled.
In other words, modifying makes sense if it is done for a known purpose, but never as a series of controls to play by trial and error, which will never get what is required.
So Wadax knowledge in Dac and Server lets them control the signal errors in a different and better way.
And why do you want to convert from one format to another? The settings are basically the attenuation slopes of the anti-alias filters, the noise-shaping curves, etc. This task only needs to be performed within a DAC. And the parameters must be adjusted for a specific DAC, depending on the chip it uses and many other elements that only the DAC manufacturer knows.
And there is only one optimal fit that is determined analytically during the DAC design process.
Therefore, modifying the audio file may have some of the fun for the user, but it is really analogous to inserting a digital equalizer between the server and the DAC hoping to fine tune the sound. Wadax approach is different: integrity and maximum likelihood with respect to the original.
Wadax apply feedforward to the input signal, modifying the content. This modification is done in such a way that it compensates for the non-linearities of the DAC, the rear analog section and the output stage. That is, knowing the transfer function they can determine the error introduced and make a compensation so that the error is cancelled.
In other words, modifying makes sense if it is done for a known purpose, but never as a series of controls to play by trial and error, which will never get what is required.
So Wadax knowledge in Dac and Server lets them control the signal errors in a different and better way.
so then why do you castigate one and not all of them.? What one does they all do so either pick on all or none.
I guess that you missed the following details on the Wadax Reference DAC’s design:
“The chip also upsamples the input signal to 352kHz or 384kHz, depending on the frequency of the input signal.”
No i don’t. I was waiting your answer.
You are right but reason isn’t what you are thinking about, because feedforward process increases the temporal precision when the polling frequency is higher and turn in an integer multiple of the original track.
It is a process that only brings advantages if you know how to do it well. There are many design criteria to meet for this to be all up and no downside. These criteria are critical and upsampling and preserving the NATIVE format is not a contradiction but rather complementary. What must be maintained is bit perfect during the first stages of decoding, (MQA is not decodable if it is not bit perfect). Also, time bases cannot be crossed, which means that the scaling multiples must be integer multiples.
So, once again, Wadax knowledge in Dac and Server lets them control the signal errors in a different and better way.
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You're mistaken to think I have a "problem" with HQPlayer, I love the sound it provides with my digital setup including the Aqua LinQ and Formula xHD DAC, I haven't found anything better yet. Also, I find it comical how you pick the negative reviews of the Aqua while omitting the positive. You must be fun a parties.
As a simple data point a few folks who own / owned the Formula DAC include Mike L. and Emile from Taiko.
Thanks for the conversation, entertaining.
Please reconcile your two statements below:
“I've been using HQPlayer for years and to me in my system no filters, modulators or upsampling sounds the best”
“You're mistaken to think I have a "problem" with HQPlayer, I love the sound it provides with my digital setup including the Aqua LinQ and Formula xHD DAC, I haven't found anything better yet”
Jussi has stated that even in “pass-though” or “bypass” mode HQPLAYER is not bit perfect. So you enjoy just passing the signal through HQPLAYER without any real understanding or control of the changes?
Please stop with the preconceived notions, again, I know full well how to use HQP.
Also, there is nothing to reconcile, and if you think that by not applying filters and / or upsampling = "just passing the signal through" you might want to learn what transpires from input to output.
Thanks again, I have nothing more to add. Feel free to have the last comment. And as always, enjoy the music!
No i don’t. I was waiting your answer.
You are right but reason isn’t what you are thinking about, because feedforward process increases the temporal precision when the polling frequency is higher and turn in an integer multiple of the original track.
It is a process that only brings advantages if you know how to do it well. There are many design criteria to meet for this to be all up and no downside. These criteria are critical and upsampling and preserving the NATIVE format is not a contradiction but rather complementary. What must be maintained is bit perfect during the first stages of decoding, (MQA is not decodable if it is not bit perfect). Also, time bases cannot be crossed, which means that the scaling multiples must be integer multiples.
So, once again, Wadax knowledge in Dac and Server lets them control the signal errors in a different and better way.
You are entering the realm of “alternative facts” so let’s clear a few things up. The Wadax Reference Dac has to stay bit perfect at its input to be able to decode or “unfold” MQA, ok I get that; with HQPLAYER you allow Roon Core to do the unfolding before the HQPLAYER process. But then after unfolding or decoding the PCM stream is upsampled to 352kHz or 384kHz to apply the musIC “feed forward“ “correction”…are you following me?
You see the $2.50 (two dollars and 50 cents) Texas Instruments (TI)/Burr-Brown (BB) dac chip inside the Wadax Reference Dac doesn’t care if that upsampled 352/384KHz comes form the musIC chip on its board or from an HQPLAYER server a continent away. It makes no difference if that PCM stream is native or upsampled to the dac chip.
Now let’s peel more of the Wadax onion and expose some more information: in the Wadax Reference Dac specification it states that it accepts DSD on its USB input up to a DSD256 rate, but all the internal processing with the “musIC” and “feed forward” “correction” (look up table) is done in PCM; therefore all DSD is converted to PCM internally in the Wadax. Are you following me? And more importantly, do you see where I’m going with this? Or are you ready for the wack-a-mole moment?
There is so much signal processing going on in the Wadax Reference Dac that to mislead people into thinking that is a bit perfect dac is laughable; that is even before the purported use of the mini-DSP core inside the TI/Burr-Brown dac chip. To think that on a dac this costly the emphasis would be on MQA, go figure.
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Every now and then a person who does know how the magic trick is done weighs in.
what puzzles me is at what point does one pack up there 3 card Monty table and go home ?
digital is an endless game of manipulation, some we like while others hate it.
i get at high prices one must feel things are special but the smart ones know when to let it go lol. The udder ones keep pushing waiting for the turn in the trick.
madness is what the udder ones might be feeling.
go to ps audio and ask them what magic they use
what puzzles me is at what point does one pack up there 3 card Monty table and go home ?
digital is an endless game of manipulation, some we like while others hate it.
i get at high prices one must feel things are special but the smart ones know when to let it go lol. The udder ones keep pushing waiting for the turn in the trick.
madness is what the udder ones might be feeling.
go to ps audio and ask them what magic they use
The Reference DAC incorporates full MQA decoding, is compatible with DSD up to DSD256, and PCM up to 384khz/32bit. It means Wadax DAC can decode max 384khz/32bit files, not to be upsampled to 352kHz or 384kHz like you said.
"Atlantis DAC preserves the type of audio coding that is provided by the digital audio source from beggining to end. PCM are played natively, as well as DSD are played natively. This ensures the original properties are preserved and the time base is also kept. The dual frequency clock structure of the clocking system supplies the correct frequency for each type of track so synchronous native conversion is preserved. Most High-End industry converters transcode DSD to PCM before conversion, since the DAC circuitry on-board are multi-bit type."
Please do not misinterpret Wadax's functions. Many people don't understand Wadax will go along with you and commit other mistakes.
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