Do Mobile Fidelity Vinyl Re-issues Have a Digital Step in the Process?

[microstrip]

Alas this argument is of no relevance. (...)

In fact it t has all the relevance to understand the discussions in WBF and elsewhere about this subject. It is curious that the people asking for an heavy punishment on MoFi are mostly people who seem to have an unfavorable view on their reissues or do not care about them, not those who are directly involved. They seem to be looking also for punishment for exposing the weakness of the golden years of the hobby and showing in public our susceptibility to biases.

We can’t endorse a society where it is perfectly acceptable to deliberately mislead consumers.

I fully agree with you - but we daily accept the possibility of misleading in this hobby and fraternize with it. It happens all the time - IMHO the solution is creating knowledgeable consumers, not regulations and attorneys.

 

[Audire]

Things can easily become confusing if we are not careful. The concept of master tape is most of the time ambiguous and dependent on context. In general no one has access to the "closest thing to the original", just to copies of it. As far as II have read from professionals a HiRez high quality digital link is closer to this copy than the whole vinyl process, that needs some specific tailoring.

IMHO an indisputable benefit of original vinyl is that it was carried from fresh tapes - a pity that these tapes were not copied to DSD256 fifty years ago!

See this interesting article on AnalogPlanet https://www.analogplanet.com/content/want-lacquer-love-supreme-cut-original-master-tape - it clears shows how far things are from being simple in these affairs.

The article is interesting. However, I found the comments after the article even more revealing. One from Fremer.

 

[exupgh12]

In fact it t has all the relevance to understand the discussions in WBF and elsewhere about this subject. It is curious that the people asking for an heavy punishment on MoFi are mostly people who seem to have an unfavorable view on their reissues or do not care about them, not those who are directly involved. They seem to be looking also for punishment for exposing the weakness of the golden years of the hobby and showing in public our susceptibility to biases.

Companies such as IMPAX have released superb one-step and new reissues from analog sources - meaning you can achieve the desired quality without misleading customers on your source.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

In fact it t has all the relevance to understand the discussions in WBF and elsewhere about this subject. It is curious that the people asking for an heavy punishment on MoFi are mostly people who seem to have an unfavorable view on their reissues or do not care about them, not those who are directly involved. They seem to be looking also for punishment for exposing the weakness of the golden years of the hobby and showing in public our susceptibility to biases.



I fully agree with you - but we daily accept the possibility of misleading in this hobby and fraternize with it. It happens all the time - IMHO the solution is creating knowledgeable consumers, not regulations and attorneys.

Any company who behaves in an unethical manner systematically over many years requires substantial changes in their organisational culture as well as immediate rectification (pun intended) of wrongdoing. Nobody with a sound brain can agree that Mofi are innocent in what they have done here.

The solution can’t be on the consumer. That is why regulation exists the world over in all aspects of our lives. Most people don’t have time or inclination as consumers to educate themselves to detect wrongdoers - they rightly rely on external bodies. This applies to so many aspects of the world we live in - medicines regulations being the one I am in. Now of course, medicines regulation is critical because things can result in life or death. Electrical certifications of safety are similar. Advertising standards regulations and entities exist for very good reasons and this is their role.

 

[microstrip]

Any company who behaves in an unethical manner systematically over many years requires substantial changes in their organisational culture as well as immediate rectification (pun intended) of wrongdoing. Nobody with a sound brain can agree that Mofi are innocent in what they have done here.

It is not being questioned.

The solution can’t be on the consumer. That is why regulation exists the world over in all aspects of our lives. Most people don’t have time or inclination as consumers to educate themselves to detect wrongdoers - they rightly rely on external bodies. This applies to so many aspects of the world we live in - medicines regulations being the one I am in. Now of course, medicines regulation is critical because things can result in life or death. Electrical certifications of safety are similar. Advertising standards regulations and entities exist for very good reasons and this is their role.

Should we start discussing the standards for cable advertising in a separate thread?

 

[Audiophile Bill]

It is not being questioned.



Should we start discussing the standards for cable advertising in a separate thread?

Haha don’t get me started on the latter but yes. As I wrote relatively recently the “high end” would look very different than it does today. Personally I feel that would be a good thing but then I also feel the whole cable “thing” is wildly out of control. Anyway - I won’t belabour the cable thing since I will derail the current thread.

 

[dminches]

I don’t have anything against digital. Mofi should change the product to a usb stick in a fancy box. What is the point of digital vinyl? If the native source of the master came from digital, then sell it as digital. Putting that back into vinyl seems utterly pointless. But then doing that won’t make anywhere near the revenue they make off selling their digital vinyl at exorbitant prices. Ymmv etc.

The point of digital vinyl is that many people have superior sounding vinyl playback systems as compared to digital.

I would guess that 95% of vinyl today is digitally sourced. The majority of consumers don’t care. I would also guess that the majority of digitally sourced LPs are do not say how they are made.

(None of this is an argument to exonerate MoFi.)

 

[Audire]

In fact it t has all the relevance to understand the discussions in WBF and elsewhere about this subject. It is curious that the people asking for an heavy punishment on MoFi are mostly people who seem to have an unfavorable view on their reissues or do not care about them, not those who are directly involved. They seem to be looking also for punishment for exposing the weakness of the golden years of the hobby and showing in public our susceptibility to biases.

“not those who are directly involved.” How do you know this as a fact? I doubt that most people that were defrauded by MoFi are even on audio forums. Is the first lawsuit from parties that are “directly involved“?

“They seem to be looking also for punishment for exposing the weakness of the golden years of the hobby and showing in public our susceptibility to biases.” Again, how do you know this as a fact? Have you, without digital bias, interviewed everyone who has been affected by the MoFi scandal? No! Thus, such sweeping generalities are irresponsible. Perhaps some people don’t like lying labels in the hobby? Perhaps some are suffering a financial loss due to MoFi’s actions? IMO, there are numerous reasons why some are so concerned about this issue.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

The point of digital vinyl is that many people have superior sounding vinyl playback systems as compared to digital.

I would guess that 95% of vinyl today is digitally sourced. The majority of consumers don’t care. I would also guess that the majority of digitally sourced LPs are do not say how they are made.

(None of this is an argument to exonerate MoFi.)

Sincere question: does the digital vinyl sound better on their TT / cart / phono than the native digital dsd 256 on their dac?

Best.

 

[davidavdavid]

It seems that the absolute sound sent written questions to Jim Davis, the owner of Music Direct, to which he responded in writing.

MoFi President Jim Davis Addresses the Digital LP-Mastering Controversy - The Absolute Sound — the absolute sound

MoFi President Jim Davis Addresses the Digital LP-Mastering Controversy - Jim Davis, president of Mofi, gives JV and RH insight into the company's mastering process in this exclusive interview.

apple.news

The questions strike me as “softball.” For example:

“The revelation that MoFi cuts from digital masters has suggested to many that the advantages of a purely analog chain are imaginary. How do you reply to that line of thinking?”​

I do not see any hard questions about past misleading statements. Is the absolute sound letting Michael Fremer carry the water on the tough stuff?

MoFi: Stepping Digitally since 2011 and for good since 2020

Thanks Jim.

 

[Ron Resnick]

In all likelihood, AS receives money in advertising from Mofi / music direct.

This raises a fair question of a conflict if interest. Instead of speculating, let’s get the fact.

Would someone who subscribes to the TAS print edition please kindly check the advertisers’ index of the last few issues and see if Mobile Fidelity or Music Direct is an advertiser?

 

[dminches]

Sincere question: does the digital vinyl sound better on their TT / cart / phono than the native digital dsd 256 on their dac?

Best.

Some people are still analog only. For those who aren’t, in my experience, it takes a lot of money to build a digital system which starts to get close to analog. At least for me it did. Many people aren’t able to do that or don’t want to do that so a digitally sourced LP is still of interest to them.

To answer your question directly, probably.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Some people are still analog only. For those who aren’t, in my experience, it takes a lot of money to build a digital system which starts to get close to analog. At least for me it did. Many people aren’t able to do that or don’t want to do that so a digitally sourced LP is still of interest to them.

To answer your question directly, probably.

Yes I am analogue only although I have ability to listen to digital via my Tascam DA1000.

Agree with the comment it takes a lot of money to build a digital system that competes with analogue but I had only made that assertion if the source was analogue not digital.

Maybe I am incorrect, but if the native source was dsd256, I would expect that to sound better from my Tascam direct than spinning it via my TT.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

This raises a fair question of a conflict if interest. Instead of speculating, let’s get the fact.

Would someone who subscribes to the TAS print edition please kindly check the advertisers’ index of the last few issues and see if Mobile Fidelity or Music Direct is an advertiser?

Hi Ron,

Agree. It is probably more complex because of the Music Direct affiliation. Music Direct are selling Martin Logan for example, which is one of 2 sponsored brands listed under brands on TAS homepage.

 

[dminches]

Yes I am analogue only although I have ability to listen to digital via my Tascam DA1000.

Agree with the comment it takes a lot of money to build a digital system that competes with analogue but I had only made that assertion if the source was analogue not digital.

Maybe I am incorrect, but if the native source was dsd256, I would expect that to sound better from my Tascam direct than spinning it via my TT.

Only your ears can decide this but I would guess a digital LP would sound better than the DSD files with your current setup. Your TT setup is very high-end!

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Only your ears can decide this but I would guess a digital LP would sound better than the DSD files with your current setup. Your TT setup is very high-end!

Will try it this weekend. Cheers

 

[Audire]

This raises a fair question of a conflict if interest. Instead of speculating, let’s get the fact.

Would someone who subscribes to the TAS print edition please kindly check the advertisers’ index of the last few issues and see if Mobile Fidelity or Music Direct is an advertiser?

According to The Absolute Sound Advertisers it has Music Direct advertising in the Jan 2022 Issue on pages 97, 136, and 137. MoFi Electronics on page 107.

 

[Ron Resnick]

According to The Absolute Sound Advertisers it has Music Direct advertising in the Jan 2022 Issue on pages 97, 136, and 137. MoFi Electronics on page 107.

And now we have a fact to support Bill’s speculation. Thank you, Audire.

We also have an advertiser revenue potential conflict of interest by the absolute sound. Are the absolute sound’s reviews of Mobile Fidelity products or journalism practices toward Mobile Fidelity affected by Mobile Fidelity’s or Music Direct’s advertising in the absolute sound?

I think this potential conflict of interest is an actual conflict of interest, as evidenced by what is in my opinion a set of softball questions to Jim Davis. Additional support for this journalism favoritism point is that every other journalist I have read or heard has raised and asked the hard questions about Mobile Fidelity’s prior misleading statements.

 

[mtemur]

Everybody’s easily taking mofi’s statement about using dsd transfer IOT achieve a better quality. I think it’s more about convenience not better sound quality. IMHO mofi uses dsd IOT be able to release those albums otherwise they couldn’t because record companies don’t let their master tapes to travel across USA. Mofi could use a tape tranfer but we don’t know why they didn’t. Maybe it is more pricey or record companies ask those tapes (copies) back too after album released. IMHO it has nothing to do with sound quality. The time they switch to dsd falls in with record companies’ decision of not letting master tapes to travel.

 

[Joe Whip]

I will have to read the complaint, but as a retired trial lawyer who worked cases in federal court and one in the Supreme Court, there are many issues here. The biggest is class certification because without it, I do not see these two lead plaintiffs meeting the $75,000 threshold for diversity, even considering the possibility of punitive damages. With the claims based on state law, I could see a federal judge interpreting things narrowly and kicking the case out To be dealt with at the state court level. I have known a couple federal judges who would be loathe to have this type of case in the federal system, with state court remedies available. Without class certification, I just do not see this case staying in federal court. Then you have the issue of fraud and damages. Now consumer protection laws are not my area of expertise, but is the undisclosed digital step amount to legal fraud? You are still buying a record in all likelihood a great sounding one. If it can be proven that the DSD transfer is transparent to the master, what is the injury? For people who buy these one steps in part as an investment vs. actual use, that may be a bit too speculative for the court to consider. I am not even sure that the purposes of these laws is to protect that interest. Finally, my experience with class action lawsuits is that the only winners are the lawyers, on both sides. The actual plaintiffs get very little. Given all these considerations, would audiophiles like to see MoFi and Music Direct driven out of business so that a few lawyers get to make a killing? For these reasons, I do not really see this case going anywhere. But, I could be wrong.