Various DAC Audition Impressions

[Alrainbow]

I second that reaction. 5$ USB and Roon nucleus was not fair for Kassandra, especially trying to compete with MSB select and wadax. Robert do (who brought Kassandra) should have brought signature or limited edition of Kassandra for audition, which is more in par with select and wadax.

I met him he is very driven and knows well. the use of a roon nuc is not the only issue here
Roon direct alone has sound issues and while it can be better if proper settings are used it’s a less then optimal example
The usb cable can hurt as well
I think if he brought the flagship it makes things worse in that the issues at hand may not be fixed by most dacs.

 

[Alrainbow]

Except for Wadax, the others connected to Roon Nucleus, so I don't think there was discrimination between them in this. With Wadax yes and very large, since this had its reference server with the optical cable, but pk_LA already warned us, that it was not intended to be a "strict" comparison with all the parameters equally well adjusted. Thanks to pk_LA for their efforts and actually the "little" Aries Cerat was pretty well thought of, even with his $5 USB cable.

Completely not a fair example of dacs wow.
I feel sorry for all the others in this very one sided audition
how or why would anyone allow this to take place and then get out to print here.
mom sorry for pointing to the effects on this but if me no way

 

[bryans]

I must say reading through this topic is almost comical. @pk_LA laid out how HE evaluated different DACs and people have issues with it. I'm sure @pk_LA wasn't seeking approval on how he needs to select gear for his room. We need to RELAX. We are not curing world hunger here. Everyone makes decision on gear they way they want to. If reading about how someone selects gear brings frustration, it's probably time to find a new outlet.

 

[PeterA]

I must say reading through this topic is almost comical. @pk_LA laid out how HE evaluated different DACs and people have issues with it. I'm sure @pk_LA wasn't seeking approval on how he needs to select gear for his room. We need to RELAX. We are not curing world hunger here. Everyone makes decision on gear they way they want to. If reading about how someone selects gear brings frustration, it's probably time to find a new outlet.

I agree with you Bryans. PK should be commended for the effort to conduct such a comparison, regardless of the variables. He was then generous to take the time to share it all with us. This stuff is not easy and it is information we would not otherwise have. Same with Ron’s additional thoughts.

 

[bryans]

Heck I'm envious of @pk_LA. For him to be able to get all of this gear to demo is incredible. I have been looking at streamers/servers and the hardest part is getting gear to demo in my room.

 

[joaovieira]

I think @pk_LA did what he had to do. Use the server he has now to compare the DACs he would get.
What would be the point on trying APEX with Extreme, MSB with another server, etc?
Unless he was going to invest in a combo server-dad. That's not what I understood.

 

[nonesup]

I must say reading through this topic is almost comical. @pk_LA laid out how HE evaluated different DACs and people have issues with it. I'm sure @pk_LA wasn't seeking approval on how he needs to select gear for his room. We need to RELAX. We are not curing world hunger here. Everyone makes decision on gear they way they want to. If reading about how someone selects gear brings frustration, it's probably time to find a new outlet.

You can't imagine how relaxed I am: on vacation and after drinking two glasses of sherry with some olives. This is not a criticism of pk_LA (in any way). I thanked him for his work and I thank him again. Some of us simply comment on some details of the tests without criticism.

 

[Alrainbow]

I’m very happy he did it
im not claiming what he did is all wrong
BUT having said this he used and made comments on nearly a million in audio devices.
i think to do this means it effects the few who can afford these luxury items
I do agree on many conclusions given on these items as well. I’m the end it’s also choices , but having read many equipment compares it’s obvious to me how things are done is even more then just observations
If they all used the same source a cheap nuc lol I’m wondering how things might have turned out
lastly what’s very concerning to me as the most is how other dacs when compared to wadax were better in any ways
this seems sad for wadax lol.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I’m very happy he did it
im not claiming what he did is all wrong
BUT having said this he used and made comments on nearly a million in audio devices.
i think to do this means it effects the few who can afford these luxury items
I do agree on many conclusions given on these items as well. I’m the end it’s also choices , but having read many equipment compares it’s obvious to me how things are done is even more then just observations
If they all used the same source a cheap nuc lol I’m wondering how things might have turned out
lastly what’s very concerning to me as the most is how other dacs when compared to wadax were better in any ways
this seems sad for wadax lol.

don't be sad for the Wadax. it was in and out of the system in a few (3) hours. never had a chance to settle from transport (not the only one like that). i know how mine sounded in the same situation. MSB and Horizon had days.

these efforts are valuable data points. still PK preferred the Wadax other than price. and as PK and Ron mentioned the PK's system balance rewarded warm sounding dacs.....for balancing. how does that relate to typical (uber 'plus' dac intending) systems?

when PK selected the MSB he had already bought it....before he ever heard it. a factor? you bet, the biggest......the 800 pound gorilla in the room. he could now move on. he was not comfortable with the Wadax price, and here was a nice sounding dac he owned. hard to argue. Ron recommended the MSB purchase. a factor for Ron? and it was the last one. recency bias? not a trivial aspect.

just read my linked direct compare. actual interested Wadax considerers will read that. others won't.......always the way it is.

don't be sad for Wadax. it's good. very, very good in fact.

 

[Steve Williams]

It seems that everyone (myself included) is hoping that Patrick will be bringing in the newly released MSB Digital Director to complement his Select ll. If so I bet everyone will want to read that review. Interesting comments by Patrick in passing re the Horizon and he will be coming back to hear mine as I also look forward to visiting Patrick to hear his new gear. I am hoping to hear the Digital Director with the new Select ll. It's all good Patrick

 

[Alpinist]

don't be sad for the Wadax. it was in and out of the system in a few (3) hours. never had a chance to settle from transport (not the only one like that). i know how mine sounded in the same situation. MSB and Horizon had days.

these efforts are valuable data points. still PK preferred the Wadax other than price. and as PK and Ron mentioned the PK's system balance rewarded warm sounding dacs.....for balancing. how does that relate to typical (uber 'plus' dac intending) systems?

when PK selected the MSB he had already bought it....before he ever heard it. a factor? you bet, the biggest......the 800 pound gorilla in the room. he could now move on. he was not comfortable with the Wadax price, and here was a nice sounding dac he owned. hard to argue. Ron recommended the MSB purchase. a factor for Ron? and it was the last one. recency bias? not a trivial aspect.

just read my linked direct compare. actual interested Wadax considerers will read that. others won't.......always the way it is.

don't be sad for Wadax. it's good. very, very good in fact.

Hi Mike,

A couple points.

PK never said he preferred the sound quality of the Wadax over the MSB. “But, I was ready to buy any of these and if the Wadax had been noticeably stronger I would have bought it.”

You stated “when PK selected the MSB over the Wadax, he had already purchased the MSB”. Hadn’t you already purchased the Wadax when you selected the Wadax over the MSB?

Ken

 

[Lee]

Hi

Two systems I heard Apex in:
One was Magico M w/ solution amps. The other was Wilson w Dagastino.

I do agree with what many said here that system synergy is very relevant as well as musical preferences. I also want to repeat more emphatically what I started out saying which is that these differences are not that great. As I said, any one here would be happy with a Vivaldi stack, no doubt. I also would not call the Horizon “warm.” In fact, I wonder (and I could be dead wrong) if you hear the Horizon as warm because your “neutral” is a cool one…. I am sensitive to the menthol flavor of DCS. It is there in the Apex as well when you compare to Horizon, MSB, Aries Cerat or Playback. I havent done a direct comparison of pre and post Apex to say how much it has changed. But overall, relative to other dacs, it is leaner, less rich and harmonic, cooler…. By a shade. Just a shade. If you have a DCS be happy and grateful you do, it is great gear. If shopping, I would recommend turning elsewhere for equal to better sound and often for a cheaper price, not to mention the saved rack space and miles of cables.

PS Let’s not forget the Horizon in this audition wasn’t broken in, nor optimized w/ tubes calibrated to his system….

But this discussion of dCS owners preferring cool is not true, at least in my case. Historically I have preferred tubes and leaned on the warm side of neutral. In fact I specifically mentioned the professional recordings I do because I remember the live events and the recordings (especially the better ones where I nailed the mic placement) serve as a guide to playback quality.

My honest view is that the APEX DACs are not lean at all nor less rich and harmonic. Indeed these are standout qualities of the DAC and I know this because guitar and string ensembles exhibit these qualities in such an involving way when played back through the Rossini APEX.

 

[Lee]

I met him he is very driven and knows well. the use of a roon nuc is not the only issue here
Roon direct alone has sound issues and while it can be better if proper settings are used it’s a less then optimal example
The usb cable can hurt as well
I think if he brought the flagship it makes things worse in that the issues at hand may not be fixed by most dacs.

In my own house, I have noticed a significant bump in sound quality when streaming is done via Mosaic rather than Roon. But I love Roon so much that I still use it for it’s music exploration functionality.

If we are doing comparisons with streamed music on APEX units but not using Mosaic then that is not showing what an APEX is capable of.

 

[bryans]

In my own house, I have noticed a significant bump in sound quality when streaming is done via Mosaic rather than Roon. But I love Roon so much that I still use it for it’s music exploration functionality.

If we are doing comparisons with streamed music on APEX units but not using Mosaic then that is not showing what an APEX is capable of.

OK first I want to say I have not heard the APEX upgrade but have listened to dCS gear quite a bit. I personally believe dCS makes some of the best gear period. But if I'm demoing dCS and I use Roon as my music management SW, why would I not use it to evaluate the product? I say demo it in the way you plan to use it. This doesn't take away from Mosaic or dCS APEX.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Hi Mike,

A couple points.

PK never said he preferred the sound quality of the Wadax over the MSB. “But, I was ready to buy any of these and if the Wadax had been noticeably stronger I would have bought it.”

You stated “when PK selected the MSB over the Wadax, he had already purchased the MSB”. Hadn’t you already purchased the Wadax when you selected the Wadax over the MSB?

Ken

how do you interpret this?

"I was close to buying the Wadax but the MSB was so very good that I just could not rationalize the price delta."

part of which he was looking at a used MSB he already owned.

of course part of my view has to do with my phone conversations with PK. but the above comment speaks to my point anyway. i'm an MSB fan so i think he made a wise choice. and i do understand it. if i could not rationalize the Wadax price i would choose the (used) MSB too. it's 'safe' and leaves him options.

but part of that was the lack of a head to head, as well as the other factors i mentioned above.

i feel badly that my Wadax choice is interpreted as anti-MSB....which is not true. but it's how this hobby works.

but we have a result and move on.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Except for Wadax, the others connected to Roon Nucleus, so I don't think there was discrimination between them in this. With Wadax yes and very large, since this had its reference server with the optical cable, but pk_LA already warned us, that it was not intended to be a "strict" comparison with all the parameters equally well adjusted. Thanks to pk_LA for their efforts and actually the "little" Aries Cerat was pretty well thought of, even with his $5 USB cable.

You are allowing the perfect to be the enemy of the great. How often do we read nonsense “comparisons” about competing components across different systems and different rooms?

Be happy this was a survey of eight (8) different DACs in the same system and in the same room, as apples-to-apples as reasonably possible.

 

[Ron Resnick]

when PK selected the MSB he had already bought it....before he ever heard it. a factor? you bet, the biggest......the 800 pound gorilla in the room. he could now move on. he was not comfortable with the Wadax price, and here was a nice sounding dac he owned. hard to argue. Ron recommended the MSB purchase. a factor for Ron? and it was the last one. recency bias? not a trivial aspect.

You are really reaching here.

I recommended the MSB purchase as a virtually no-risk way of getting an MSB Select II into pk_LA’s house for participation in the survey. If pk_LA didn’t like the MSB it would’ve been back out the door like a month old banana.

My only MSB bias, if any, is that I have enjoyed the MSB Reference in Keith’s system during many visits.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

You are really reaching here.

I recommended the MSB purchase as a virtually no-risk way of getting an MSB Select II into pk_LA’s house for participation in the survey. If pk_LA didn’t like the MSB it would’ve been back out the door like a month old banana.

My only MSB bias, if any, is that I have enjoyed the MSB Reference in Keith’s system during many visits.

i was reacting to Alrainbow's comment "this seems sad for Wadax"....and so explaining why i don't see it that way. i'm just commenting on the facts of the circumstances....and how those could be factors.

no doubt you presented PK with a safe option, not questioning your intent. but since you did it, that is part of your involvement.

 

[bryans]

You are allowing the perfect to be the enemy of the great.

Great quote!

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Hi Mike,

A couple points.

PK never said he preferred the sound quality of the Wadax over the MSB. “But, I was ready to buy any of these and if the Wadax had been noticeably stronger I would have bought it.”

You stated “when PK selected the MSB over the Wadax, he had already purchased the MSB”. Hadn’t you already purchased the Wadax when you selected the Wadax over the MSB?

Ken

Ken,

forgot to address your second question. no money had changed hands until i heard the Wadax in my system. after that first weekend i paid for the dac. then after the second weekend and my server shootout i paid for the server.

if i would have passed i would have been on the hook for the (3000 mile, -3- 150 pound crates) shipping. so i had some degree of commitment. Elliot was comfortable since i had heard the Wadax a month prior at his place in South Florida....and i liked it already enough for him to do it. it came together only late December after my visit to Elliot's, as they had no unit set aside for me.

i was as careful as i could be, and Elliot knew i intended to do it. but it was not a fully done deal.

it was never a 'safe' used unit sitting there at (un-named percentage of) retail i had already paid for and could easily turn if i did not care for it later. so not like PK's circumstance. i had high 6 figures of reasons not to do it.