Soundstage Reproduction and Scale: Does Speaker Size Matter?

[Ron Resnick]

Based on my auditioning experience I have found that I like tall loudspeakers, because I find that height contributes to realistic soundstage scale and a more authentic reproduction of the size and grandeur of a classical symphony orchestra. This is why I like tall systems like Evolution Acoustics MM7 and Rockport Arrakis and Wilson XVX and Gryphon Pendragon/Kodo and Von Schweikert Ultra 11 and YG Sonja XV, etc.

Kedar disagrees, and argues that tall speakers artificially generate a sense of size and scale regardless of whether such ambient information is actually encoded on the recording. In his view – – and, Kedar, you should correct me straightaway if I am mis-stating your view here – – a small speaker, such as the wonderfully musical DeVore O96, more accurately channels the actual ambient acoustic soundstage information, if any, which is in the recording. He feels that the small speaker is more accurate in the sense that it will generate or not generate only the ambient information which is actually encoded in the recording, and not automatically scale up to large size every recording.

This contrasts with the tall speaker which automatically scales up and homogenizes every recording, whether there is authentic ambient large soundstage information encoded in the recording or not.

What do you think?

 

[Steve Williams]

I am and always have been a tall speaker zealot for the very reasons you give

 

[shakti]

there are many tall speaker concepts existing.

Many do follow the concept of a point source with extended bass capability, best example is the big Magellan Grand, concert, which is a 2 way monitor in the middle and a bottom and top subwoofer unit.

Going further also the Wilson concepts are point sources with additional subwoofer, like the former watt/puppy had it even in the name.
The bigger wilsons had 3 way point sources and 2 way subwoofers below.

A complete different story are line sources like Dali Megaline or the big Gryphons.

This speaker type is creating a cylinder wave, with reduced reflections on floor and ceiling and also a reduced lost on DB over the listening distance.

The sonic signature of a point source speaker plus integrated sub is dfferent than from a line source, specially in big rooms and long distance listening. Gryphon has give for their first 4 tower speaker project a clear spec, that the speaker should be used in bigger rooms (more than 60qm)

From Avalon‘s Neil Patel I learned, that ver often smaller speakers do sound more „real“, as the reflections from the rear and side walls can flow more naturally without beeing reflected from the large walls of big speaker towers.

It is said, that Avalon speakers do have their unique design to create a kind of stealth effect to acoustic reflections and that Avalon is testing their speaker cabinets empty just as reflecting bodies in a room with small speakers playing music. Their latest Tesseract is the end result of their stealth design.

If you look to the new Wilson speakers, I can see, that their speaker cabinet deaign is now also changed and improved in regard of reducing wall reflections.

Indeed, comparing small and big speakers is an interesting field of speaker Design concepts as such and room acoustic interaction as well.

 

[bonzo75]

Based on my auditioning experience I have found that I like tall loudspeakers, because I find that height contributes to realistic soundstage scale and a more authentic reproduction of the size and grandeur of a classical symphony orchestra. This is why I like tall systems like Evolution Acoustica MM7 and Rockport Arrakis and Wilson XVX and Gryphon Pendragon/Kodo and Von Schweikert Ultra 11, etc.

Kedar disagrees, and argues that tall speakers artificially generate a sense of size and scale regardless of whether such ambient information is actually encoded on the recording. In his view – – and, Kedar, you should correct me straightaway if I am mis-stating your view here – – a small speaker, such as the wonderfully musical DeVore O96, more accurately channels the actual ambient acoustic soundstage information, if any, which is in the recording. He feels that the small speaker is more accurate in the sense that it will generate or not generate only the ambient information which is actually encoded in the recording, and not automatically scale up to large size every recording.

This contrasts with the tall speaker which automatically scales up and homogenizes every recording, whether there is authentic ambient large soundstage information encoded in the recording or not.

What do you think?

My point is just thinking a speaker taller than Devore O96 creates a soundstage bigger than O96 is flawed thinking. It depends on speaker room interaction. The soundstage on the recording is greater than that created by the speaker height. If you have a tall speaker that is still small relative to the room, and system is transparent enough to project the stage from the LP, then it fine. But just stuffing a big speaker in a room to project stage that starts at 6 feet instead of 2 or 3 feet is what I disagree with.

 

[Gregadd]

I am for a line source.

 

[PeterA]

I am for a line source.

So am I. A very long continuous line that is formed in a spiral.

 

[Alrainbow]

I think a line source has advantages a point source does not
once one likes line sources it’s tough to like small scale
now large horns to me may not be a line sound but do give me the sound stage of them
lastly for the line source groupies
who dont like a ten foot tall Elvis

 

[Gregadd]

So am I. A very long continuous line that is formed in a spiral.

Rim shot.

 

[MRJAZZ]

A well behaved Line Source, will always convey a sense of “ease” and with all else being relatively equal (appropriate front end, amplification, etc.) freedom from distortion and compression that contributes to a sense of realism that smaller, dimensionally challenged (and generally with less drivers) can.

Of course, well designed horn based designs can also do what a good line source can, (in terms of low distortion and a sense of ease) and in some instances even better due to the extreme dynamic swings they can convey.
Cheers....

 

[Gregadd]

I think a line source has advantages a point source does not
once one likes line sources it’s tough to like small scale
now large horns to me may not be a line sound but do give me the sound stage of them
lastly for the line source groupies
who dont like ten foot tall Elvis

A well behaved Line Source, will always convey a sense of “ease” and with all else being relatively equal (appropriate front end, amplification, etc.) freedom from distortion and compression that contributes to a sense of realism that smaller, dimensionally challenged (and generally with less drivers) can.

Of course, well designed horn based designs can also do what a good line source can, (in terms of low distortion and a sense of ease) and in some instances even better due to the extreme dynamic swings they can convey.
Cheers....

Also in general i find horns also excel in the horizontal plane.

 

[DasguteOhr]

no...size doesn't matter unless you want to reproduce live volume at a concert. that was the best performance i ever heard in munich. the small loudspeaker viewfinder can no longer be found acoustically at all the music filled the entire room simply gorgeous sound. that's why there are so many ingenious concepts that in my opinion it doesn't have to be big.

 

[tima]

no...size doesn't matter unless you want to reproduce live volume at a concert. that was the best performance i ever heard in munich. the small loudspeaker viewfinder can no longer be found acoustically at all the music filled the entire room simply gorgeous sound. that's why there are so many ingenious concepts that in my opinion it doesn't have to be big.

Okay, smallish speakers fill the room. But do we ever really know what the scale or soundstage 'should be' for electronica? Maybe the notion of scale does not apply for such.

If Thomas Hampson sang Kindertotenlieder with a mouth that big, something would be terribly wrong.

 

[bonzo75]

Okay, smallish speakers fill the room. But do we ever really know what the scale or soundstage 'should be' for electronica?

You play two recordings, if it changes, that’s what the stage should be

 

[tima]

You play two recordings, if it changes, that’s what the stage should be

Huh?

 

[bonzo75]

Huh?

if those speakers are filling the room, they are depicting well what the scale of that electronica recording should be. This can be confirmed by playing another recording with a different scale

 

[tima]

if those speakers are filling the room, they are depicting well what the scale of that electronica recording should be. This can be confirmed by playing another recording with a different scale

That just tells what the soundstage is on some particular system/room.

 

[Gregadd]

Personally I never experienced the "big mouth" phenomena. I am sure it's a thing. But no doubt a competent design can eliminate it. I am just saying.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Okay, smallish speakers fill the room. But do we ever really know what the scale or soundstage 'should be' for electronica? Maybe the notion of scale does not apply for such.

If Thomas Hampson sang Kindertotenlieder with a mouth that big, something would be terribly wrong.

I think you misunderstood me, the speakers reproduce the recording(soundstage) excellently, regardless of whether in deep, high or wide. they disappear acoustically, not many loudspeakers can do that. bass they can also -3db/32 hertz. I can recommend you to listen to Süsskind audio progress lx speaker will amaze you promised

 

[bonzo75]

I think you misunderstood me, the speakers reproduce the recording(soundstage) excellently, regardless of whether in deep, high or wide. they disappear acoustically, not many loudspeakers can do that. bass they can also -3db/32 hertz. I can recommend you to listen to Süsskind audio progress lx speaker will amaze you promised

Yes and now it is really easy to understand since they are Suesskind speakers. I heard them at Anamighty and superb staging and transparency to recordings

Anamighty Sound: Analog shootout – Zero Distortion

zero-distortion.org

 

[wil]

I went from 6' high Avant-garde Duo Mezzos to 3.5" high Boenicke W13's. I loved the W13's. They filled the room with a spacious, music friendly sound. Only one thing lacked for me -- verticality. While they filled my large room with ease, it was more of a magic trick than natural physics. The AG's projected vertical sound that seemed more real, because they were physically taller.

I now have 7' high Evolution Acoustics MM'7s. They project an effortless, natural scale that varies with the recording in a way I believe a much smaller scale speaker could never do.