The Law of Diminishing Returns is BS! A Video on the Magico M9 (TAS)

[tima]

I don't even think increments happen with price increases. The increase in value comes to a certain point after which it is just not there. Sometimes coloration and artificiality has to be added to justify change in sound and price increase. So one man's increment can be another man's excrement.

If there is not some difference to account for a price increase, the brand will take a step back. But yes, the increment may be the excrement and brand loyalists will put it on a bun. Regardless of the worth of the increment, it can be seen by some to be forward movement, progress, the latest thing. One thing that has become a constant is market churn. It's like a disease that will never have a cure because there is too much money to be made on the maintenance programs.

If Alon Wolf or Darryl Wilson could make a speaker that was a hair's breath from the real thing would they do it?

 

[bonzo75]

If there is not some difference to account for a price increase, the brand will take a step back. But yes, the increment may be the excrement and brand loyalists will put it on a bun. Regardless of the worth of the increment, it can be seen by some to be forward movement, progress, the latest thing. One thing that has become a constant is market churn. It's like a disease that will never have a cure because there is too much money to be made on the maintenance programs.

If Alon Wolf or Darryl Wilson could make a speaker that was a hair's breath from the real thing would they do it?

Yes but my point was after a certain point I am not seeing forward movement, or progress, except in price, and in change. There can be a bit change in bass here and high there but it does not in any way impact my sense of realism. I can see big benefits on certain jumps, marginal benefits on some, and no benefits or degrades on others.

Another point, particularly with speakers. Even when a bigger, more expensive speaker is actually better, the additional size could make it a negative step for many audiophiles, yet they will trade in for the upgrade.

 

[tima]

2. We at TAS have a much more detailed strategy for bringing on board a younger generation and we have discussed it on the forum before. It came out of a two year strategy review that Tom Martin and I did. It involves partly a new customer segmentation with a focus on personal audio and what we call “Metropolitan Systems” which is simply a more lifestyle friend system that is targeted at fans living in smaller apartments and other living space. It also involved a focus on the three major gateways into the hobby: personal audio, vinyl, and computer audio.

There's no guarantee the beat will go on.

At least you are thinking about this. I don't know how it will pan out in terms of predicting or guiding the future, but I give you and Tom kudos for the efforts. Who else can be said to have even the idea of a big picture ... maybe some 'entertainment execs', but that probably ignores audio.

And Happy New Year to you too!

 

[tima]

Yes but my point was after a certain point I am not seeing forward movement, or progress, except in price, and in change. There can be a bit change in bass here and high there but it does not in any way impact my sense of realism. I can see big benefits on certain jumps, marginal benefits on some, and no benefits or degrades on others.

Another point, particularly with speakers. Even when a bigger, more expensive speaker is actually better, the additional size could make it a negative step for many audiophiles, yet they will trade in for the upgrade.

I agree about what counts as "progress" -- especially as you say in terms of realism. What does Magico (or other big speaker manufacturer) see as the goal of their top end products/ M9? Is it realism, believability? The tout seems to be on the technology and materials. But I have not heard it. The one very brief video I heard was good, maybe a touch dry and not low frequency material. I also agree about the size. Space is luxury in some parts of the world. The price seems insane, but there is no precedent for top-end price in terms of luxury and status. Make it big and expensive and it will get noticed. Maybe that's the goal?

 

[Lee]

I agree about what counts as "progress" -- especially as you say in terms of realism. What does Magico (or other big speaker manufacturer) see as the goal of their top end products/ M9? Is it realism, believability? The tout seems to be on the technology and materials. But I have not heard it. The one very brief video I heard was good, maybe a touch dry and not low frequency material. I also agree about the size. Space is luxury in some parts of the world. The price seems insane, but there is no precedent for top-end price in terms of luxury and status. Make it big and expensive and it will get noticed. Maybe that's the goal?

Tim, with respect maybe you should listen to the M9 before drawing conclusions on how the price strategy evolved. When you visit Hayward, you will see the labor and costs that go into producing the M9. Alon told me he tries to keep to 4-5X BOM for prices.

 

[tima]

Tim, with respect maybe you should listen to the M9 before drawing conclusions on how the price strategy evolved. When you visit Hayward, you will see the labor and costs that go into producing the M9. Alon told me he tries to keep to 4-5X BOM for prices.

Of course - listening is imperative. Oh I believe the labor and costs are no doubt exquisite and tremendous. I have absolutely no reason to question the reality of the construction nor the fact that the overall production goes to the cost that it is at. I understand why the M9 makes heads turn and the audiophile world takes notice. I applaud companies that make these herculean almost-cost-no-object efforts to see what is possible in a production grade object.

Where I struggle is with the question: is there no way to achieve pinnacle-grade sound for a lot less? I get to define pinnacle-grade. Maybe the answer is no, maybe it's yes.

I would like to evaluate the M9 with, say, a Bionor/Eurodyn setup.

 

[Gregadd]

I can't help but compare the big pharma R&D price justification.

 

[Lee]

I can't help but compare the big pharma R&D price justification.

That's just an obviously bad analogy.

 

[Gregadd]

That's just an obviously bad analogy.

Then you will not have any trouble explaining it.

 

[Elliot G.]

THe ultimate disatisfaction with the audio world comes down to some basic facts that people just don't want to talk about nor acknowledge.
I have not heard the M9 but I would like too. There is an issue with that as I don't want to hear it at an audio show and probably not in a retail showroom. Why? because without exception there has never been one that I have heard that came close to a properly set up room, system and gear .
So trying to talk about one item outside these parameters means to me very little. I am NOT saying that what Lee heard at Magico wasn't great only saying that he/we are crediting the speaker with the results of the system. Who's to say that another speaker with the same room , same gear and same care would not sound as good or better?
My point these are not truly valid comparisions particularly since no other speaker was heard in this room/system. I do however feel that we are or should be always discussing the system and the room.
The Industry and consumers for some reason don't want that since its just not as easy to justify ones postion or ones results.

I recently had the opportunity to visit Robert Harley. I heard his existing system and then we disassembled that and installed some new gear. My listening to both of these speakers in the same room and same conditions IMO is much more valid representation of what the speakers did and can do. If I listened to the XVX in a different room and different gear may opinion could have been significantly altered.

So saying that this is better than that only hold so much water when the room , acoustics, electric, professional set up and gear are all different.

Why are these prerequists so hard to explain and for people to understand/
Mike L
David K
Marty
Carlos M.
all have serious systems but

These are all systems not pieces, The pieces are part of the sound but just one part , one step, one piece of the overall puzzle.

The "cake" is more than just the list of ingredients.
The wine is far more than a bunch of grapes

Audio has and is a system and these systems will vary and people can have thier opinions on which they prefer or which they think sounds more like the music they like. The rest is just words.
Happy New Year and too all a good night

 

[PeterA]

THe ultimate disatisfaction with the audio world comes down to some basic facts that people just don't want to talk about nor acknowledge.
I have not heard the M9 but I would like too. There is an issue with that as I don't want to hear it at an audio show and probably not in a retail showroom. Why? because without exception there has never been one that I have heard that came close to a properly set up room, system and gear .
So trying to talk about one item outside these parameters means to me very little. I am NOT saying that what Lee heard at Magico wasn't great only saying that he/we are crediting the speaker with the results of the system. Who's to say that another speaker with the same room , same gear and same care would not sound as good or better?
My point these are not truly valid comparisions particularly since no other speaker was heard in this room/system. I do however feel that we are or should be always discussing the system and the room.
The Industry and consumers for some reason don't want that since its just not as easy to justify ones postion or ones results.

I recently had the opportunity to visit Robert Harley. I heard his existing system and then we disassembled that and installed some new gear. My listening to both of these speakers in the same room and same conditions IMO is much more valid representation of what the speakers did and can do. If I listened to the XVX in a different room and different gear may opinion could have been significantly altered.

So saying that this is better than that only hold so much water when the room , acoustics, electric, professional set up and gear are all different.

Why are these prerequists so hard to explain and for people to understand/
Mike L
David K
Marty
Carlos M.
all have serious systems but

These are all systems not pieces, The pieces are part of the sound but just one part , one step, one piece of the overall puzzle.

The "cake" is more than just the list of ingredients.
The wine is far more than a bunch of grapes

Audio has and is a system and these systems will vary and people can have thier opinions on which they prefer or which they think sounds more like the music they like. The rest is just words.
Happy New Year and too all a good night

Elliot, my local friends and I have been discussing what you write in your post for quite a while. I have spoken to DDK many times about his system and it’s never just a discussion about individual pieces. Many thread discussions here discuss the interrelationship between the pieces of a system and the overall sound of the system and the contribution of the room to the sound. I think people are well aware that everything contributes.

I don’t understand your comment that people don’t want to discuss or acknowledge this. It’s a regular aspect of my discussions about audio.

 

[Elliot G.]

Elliot, my friends and I have been discussing what you write in your post for quite a while. I have spoken to DDK many times about his system and it’s never just a discussion about individual pieces.

I don’t understand your comment that people don’t want to discuss or acknowledge this. It’s a regular aspect of my discussions about audio with people.

Maybe its a part your discussions but it is almost never a part of any one else's or just about any reviewer, or commentor on a show system, or youtuber or WBF'r.
They are almost always attributing the things they like or don't like to piece A

Like in this case the M9. It may be or may not be the cat's meow but it will never be anything in a stand alone context.
All is all about the parts, the room and the results. Without any of these we have totally incomplete pictures .

 

[chuck]

The question implicit in Lee's video boils down to "Is the M9 essential to achieve the level of sound described?" I get everything in Lee's description of the M9 system from my YG Sonja XVi, Boulder 1110/3060, Playback Designs MPT/D-8, Baetis Reference, REL 32s rig for over $500K less cash. The scale, separation, all of it. Does the M9 rig do it better? Not as well? Can't wait to find out.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Maybe its a part your discussions but it is almost never a part of any one else's or just about any reviewer, or commentor on a show system, or youtuber or WBF'r.
They are almost always attributing the things they like or don't like to piece A

Like in this case the M9. It may be or may not be the cat's meow but it will never be anything in a stand alone context.
All is all about the parts, the room and the results. Without any of these we have totally incomplete pictures .

The question implicit in Lee's video boils down to "Is the M9 essential to achieve the level of sound described?" I get everything in Lee's description of the M9 system from my YG Sonja XVi, Boulder 1110/3060, Playback Designs MPT/D-8, Baetis Reference, REL 32s rig for over $500K less cash. The scale, separation, all of it. Does the M9 rig do it better? Not as well? Can't wait to find out.

feel the same about my Evolution MM7 system.

as Elliot infers, the question would be actual room to room. sure one guy has the M9's. but will that typical M9 buyer be willing to put the sweat equity and uncompromised (aesthetically) room building commitment to get as much out of those M9's as i do out of my MM7's. and take the literal years and years of system and room efforts to get everything out of them.

and in terms of performance, do his M9's = better sound over my all-in system building and room tuning commitment?

M9's are mostly viewed by their owners as much for visual art and ultimate bauble to own, as a music reproduction tool.....and make their decisions based on those priorities.

i do respect the M9.....and don't doubt it. i would expect that if an M9 owner equaled my commitment and effort they would be at least a little better. but that is a large ask.

not saying horn lovers are buying this at all. just how it is.

 

[Lee]

THe ultimate disatisfaction with the audio world comes down to some basic facts that people just don't want to talk about nor acknowledge.
I have not heard the M9 but I would like too. There is an issue with that as I don't want to hear it at an audio show and probably not in a retail showroom. Why? because without exception there has never been one that I have heard that came close to a properly set up room, system and gear .
So trying to talk about one item outside these parameters means to me very little. I am NOT saying that what Lee heard at Magico wasn't great only saying that he/we are crediting the speaker with the results of the system. Who's to say that another speaker with the same room , same gear and same care would not sound as good or better?
My point these are not truly valid comparisions particularly since no other speaker was heard in this room/system. I do however feel that we are or should be always discussing the system and the room.
The Industry and consumers for some reason don't want that since its just not as easy to justify ones postion or ones results.

I recently had the opportunity to visit Robert Harley. I heard his existing system and then we disassembled that and installed some new gear. My listening to both of these speakers in the same room and same conditions IMO is much more valid representation of what the speakers did and can do. If I listened to the XVX in a different room and different gear may opinion could have been significantly altered.

So saying that this is better than that only hold so much water when the room , acoustics, electric, professional set up and gear are all different.

Why are these prerequists so hard to explain and for people to understand/
Mike L
David K
Marty
Carlos M.
all have serious systems but

These are all systems not pieces, The pieces are part of the sound but just one part , one step, one piece of the overall puzzle.

The "cake" is more than just the list of ingredients.
The wine is far more than a bunch of grapes

Audio has and is a system and these systems will vary and people can have thier opinions on which they prefer or which they think sounds more like the music they like. The rest is just words.
Happy New Year and too all a good night

Elliot, you have and I talked extensively on the importance of room, setup and acoustics. We are in violent agreement on that.

Listening to the M9s in the factory obviously does not lend itself to comparison to other brand speakers but we heard enough to recognize that the M9 was a significant improvement over the M6.

And I am sure the same would hold with Goebel speakers at your location if you move up the line.

And of course Alon is helped along by great electronics and a great room but at a $750K purchase the buyer is definitely going to have that.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

And of course Alon is helped along by great electronics and a great room but at a $750K purchase the buyer is definitely going to have that.

no, mostly they will not.

it might be a pretty room, likely an expensive room, but great sounding room? odds are, no. for sure it won't start out great sounding, if it ends up that way it will be at the end of a long process. and unless you compare that room with one that has been really tweaked, you won't know where you are.

huge speaker + huge room = big challenge.

success compared to what reference?

 

[Lee]

The question implicit in Lee's video boils down to "Is the M9 essential to achieve the level of sound described?" I get everything in Lee's description of the M9 system from my YG Sonja XVi, Boulder 1110/3060, Playback Designs MPT/D-8, Baetis Reference, REL 32s rig for over $500K less cash. The scale, separation, all of it. Does the M9 rig do it better? Not as well? Can't wait to find out.

Chuck,

I would love to hear your system. And I like YG but I do believe the M9s will be at a higher level.

But I think we made clear the you can be happy at any price level these days.

My point is that, all else being equal (room, setup, etc.) the higher price speaker will have advantages in contradiction to what the Law of Diminishing Returns suggest.

 

[Lee]

no, mostly they will not.

it might be a pretty room, but great sounding room? odds are, no. for sure it won't start out great sounding, if it ends up that way it will be at the end of a long process. and unless you compare that room with one that has been really tweaked, you won't know where you are.

huge speaker + huge room = big challenge.

Some won't of course, but I can't judge the validity of the Law with the setup being varied...

In my experience many of these rooms have had setup experts work the room and get good results. At Robert's he had Art Noxon do the acoustics and XVXs by Peter McGrath and Elliot on the Goebel. At Hugh's he had Dennis Foley on acoustics (I know but he did well for Hugh) and Jim Smith on setup. At Magico, Alon had several acoustic experts and did the setup himself presumably. Jacob has had setup from Peter McGrath and Maier Shadi I believe.

 

[andromedaaudio]

My view

Money is not necessarily related to sound quality .
The best transducers are for the most part not found in the best lists of american magazines .
As with everything in the US ..... money talks

 

[Lee]

My view

Money is not necessarily related to sound quality .
The best transducers are for the most part not found in the best lists of american magazines .
As with everything in the US ..... money talks

Ok, I will bite. Which loudspeakers sound better than the M9?