The Law of Diminishing Returns is BS! A Video on the Magico M9 (TAS)

[andromedaaudio]

Ok, I will bite. Which loudspeakers sound better than the M9?

I have not heard the M9 , so i cannot comment on that model
I I have heard a lot of magicos through the years also higher priced models so my opinion of the brand is based on that .

Ps . im more of a fan of the smaller magicos

My top LS are Kharmas in the Exquisite range .

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Some won't of course, but I can't judge the validity of the Law with the setup being varied...

In my experience many of these rooms have had setup experts work the room and get good results. At Robert's he had Art Noxon do the acoustics and XVXs by Peter McGrath and Elliot on the Goebel. At Hugh's he had Dennis Foley on acoustics (I know but he did well for Hugh) and Jim Smith on setup. At Magico, Alon had several acoustic experts and did the setup himself presumably. Jacob has had setup from Peter McGrath and Maier Shadi I believe.

that's mostly professional industry people.

not any typical cross section of M9 owners. in fact zero M9 owners on that list. unless Hugh happens to own them.

 

[PerfectCircles]

Maybe its a part your discussions but it is almost never a part of any one else's or just about any reviewer, or commentor on a show system, or youtuber or WBF'r.
They are almost always attributing the things they like or don't like to piece A

Like in this case the M9. It may be or may not be the cat's meow but it will never be anything in a stand alone context.
All is all about the parts, the room and the results. Without any of these we have totally incomplete pictures .

I agree.

I tried a Pass Lab integrated. Ultimately I did not care for it in my system. I did not blame the Pass, I blamed it on a lack of system synergy with the Pass.

 

[Gregadd]

[text omitted]

huge speaker + huge room = big challenge

Just the amplification alone. For example, the VAC/von Schwiekrt room at CAF.

 

[PeterA]

no, mostly they will not.

it might be a pretty room, likely an expensive room, but great sounding room? odds are, no. for sure it won't start out great sounding, if it ends up that way it will be at the end of a long process. and unless you compare that room with one that has been really tweaked, you won't know where you are.

huge speaker + huge room = big challenge.

success compared to what reference?

That is a good question Mike. I used to think there was only one obvious reference, but I guess that is not the case. I know how I judge the success of a particular system in its context and what reference I use. It may be different for others.

 

[microstrip]

The law of diminishing returns is stated considering that all external conditions are kept frozen. In stereo, the listener is in permanent evolution, something that affect its applicability.

The last great expensive stereo component we have listened and enjoyed always breaks the law of diminishing returns.

 

[Tango]

M9's are mostly viewed by their owners as much for visual art and ultimate bauble to own, as a music reproduction tool.....and make their decisions based on those priorities.

Cannot say "mostly" Mike. You seem underestimating the level of commitment of the M9 owners. They are super rich yes but many of them are committed audiophiles not just penthouse owners in world's famous cities. There are so many top rooms outside WBF that sound so great that cannot even rank them because each is at pinacle of its own. They dont get there by chance. Effort and commitment are no less than yours. Cant disregard or underestimate their commitment from the stereotype of super rich.

Here are pics of a room being built specifically to house the M9. I dont doubt he will get the best out of M9. His sound will be in a different pinnacle from yours or mine.




Diminishing return? Why are we talking diminishing return in a "hobby."

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Cannot say "mostly" Mike. You seem underestimating the level of commitment of the M9 owners. They are super rich yes but many of them are committed audiophiles not just penthouse owners in world's famous cities. There are so many top rooms outside WBF that sound so great that cannot even rank them because each is at pinacle of its own. They dont get there by chance. Effort and commitment are no less than yours. Cant disregard or underestimate their commitment from the stereotype of super rich.

Here are pics of a room being built specifically to house the M9. I dont doubt he will get the best out of M9. I am sure his sound will be in a different pinnacle from yours or mine.

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Diminishing return? Why are we talking diminishing return in a "hobby."

i stand by my "mostly". some certainly have the hunger for the best sound along with the budget.

and building a great room is a big step. but only the first one. unlike some driver technologies cones and domes require heroic fine tuning acoustically to be optimized. and a few might actually take that time. but not many. a hot shot set up guy might find the best speaker and listening location, but won't hang in there for the months of trial and error to cover all of it. only the really crazy ones will go that far. and when they do i'm sure it will be a wonder to hear.

my opinion is mostly they won't get that far.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Ok, I will bite. Which loudspeakers sound better than the M9?

Another potential candidate
Did one of your magazines ever did a serious investigation into a top FM acoustics system.
If were talking whats best /absolute sound etc it would be a must in my view

 

[Lee]

Another potential candidate
Did one of your magazines ever did a serious investigation into a top FM acoustics system.
If were talking whats best /absolute sound etc it would be a must in my view

I don’t know if we did a whole system or not but certainly we have done several of the components. I would like to hear that system.

 

[Lee]

i stand by my "mostly". some certainly have the hunger for the best sound along with the budget.

and building a great room is a big step. but only the first one. unlike some driver technologies cones and domes require heroic fine tuning acoustically to be optimized. and a few might actually take that time. but not many. a hot shot set up guy might find the best speaker and listening location, but won't hang in there for the months of trial and error to cover all of it. only the really crazy ones will go that far. and when they do i'm sure it will be a wonder to hear.

my opinion is mostly they won't get that far.

Mike,

I think you bring up a good point and something that has been a theme of my three year tenure at TAS and Plus. Setup is a huge part of final results. Everything from a good panel forward makes a difference and grounding is essential.

Not everyone will go to the lengths you or I went to to get the best out of a system but the argument put forward on LDR is that all else being equal there are gains to be made with better speakers and they are not diminishing in performance.

Alon has gone all out on this listening room for sure. Probably for two good reasons: 1. A demo center for visiting journalists and customers, and 2. A room to test and voice his speakers and experiment with new drivers, cabinets, crossovers, etc.

Could your room sound better given the lengths you went to? Quite possibly, I still need to visit you.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I would like to hear that system.

As far as i know they have every year the same room at the Hifideluxe show in Munchen .
I ll probably go again this year , i enjoyed both MOC and Hifideluxe .

Maybe the M9 will be in Munchen the coming year ?

 

[Lee]

As far as i know they have every year the same room at the Hifideluxe show in Munchen .
I ll probably go again this year , i enjoyed both MOC and Hifideluxe .

Maybe the M9 will be in Munchen the coming year ?

I’m not sure but I will likely be at the Munich show so I may check out hifideluxe.

 

[Solypsa]

Cant disregard or underestimate their commitment from the stereotype of super rich.

Good reminder. It's easy to throw stones at the .00001% but doesn't mean accurate.

His sound will be in a different pinnacle from yours or mine.

In some ways no two top systems / rooms are alike. Another good reminder.

 

[exupgh12]

But my point remains, the $750K speaker I heard was actually twice the sound quality of a $300K speaker I heard. That violates the Oxford definition we put forth in the video. The Law suggests that improvements become incremental over time but because we hear in a non-linear fashion that isn’t imho true.

but is it alway like that, have you heard all 150K, 250k, 350K etc ... speakers?
LDR might not apply to every field, but as long as we are talking about as audio product, LDR works really well - even in M9 case.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike,

I think you bring up a good point and something that has been a theme of my three year tenure at TAS and Plus. Setup is a huge part of final results. Everything from a good panel forward makes a difference and grounding is essential.

agree.

Not everyone will go to the lengths you or I went to to get the best out of a system but the argument put forward on LDR is that all else being equal there are gains to be made with better speakers and they are not diminishing in performance.

which is what i wrote. the question remains just how much less room efforts are required to still allow the M9's to sound better? agree with equal efforts i would expect the M9's to be better. then there is always better presentation, greater separation and layering, verses higher resolution but less organization. so performance judging is not so simple. where is the higher musical connection?

Alon has gone all out on this listening room for sure. Probably for two good reasons: 1. A demo center for visiting journalists and customers, and 2. A room to test and voice his speakers and experiment with new drivers, cabinets, crossovers, etc.

has he? in his particular "all-in" room it looks to be less than 18 feet wide. it's wide enough, and no doubt maybe the wall build design makes it work wider, but for that speaker to really breathe i think wider would result in a higher sonic ceiling.....not questioning that it's already sounding fantastic....but objectively would wider be.....even better?

my guess is most M9 rooms are wider than 18 feet. wider rooms do require that much more effort to optimize. i can see Alon wanting to show these big speakers are happy in a real world room size. and he will use it for other speakers over time.

Could your room sound better given the lengths you went to?

not sure you mean 'better with M9's'? or 'could i take my current set-up even higher with more work?'

i probably agree M9's, given the proper time and energy optimizing, would have a higher ceiling than my MM7's. there is a chance they would not, if only very slight. we just don't know. objectively there are likely better speaker systems than my MM7's. but could i get them to sound better? do i still have it in me to try?

as far as my set-up, could i still make it better by more work? i would have to assume yes. i only know i have achieved the sound i wanted, but at some point my expectations could be moved forward. i could see that. i've dreamed of horns, and other alternatives, in my room.....would that be sideways or forward? we can't predict the future. but with retirement immanent; big moves are not real world.

Quite possibly, I still need to visit you.

hope it happens.

 

[Lee]

but is it alway like that, have you heard all 150K, 250k, 350K etc ... speakers?
LDR might not apply to every field, but as long as we are talking about as audio product, LDR works really well - even in M9 case.

You don’t have to try all the speakers to find examples where the Law doesn’t hold. You can still make valid observations based on several examples.

 

[Lee]

agree.

which is what i wrote. the question remains just how much less room efforts are required to still allow the M9's to sound better? agree with equal efforts i would expect the M9's to be better. then there is always better presentation, greater separation and layering, verses higher resolution but less organization. so performance judging is not so simple. where is the higher musical connection?

has he? in his particular "all-in" room it looks to be less than 18 feet wide. it's wide enough, and no doubt maybe the wall build design makes it work wider, but for that speaker to really breathe i think wider would result in a higher sonic ceiling.....not questioning that it's already sounding fantastic....but objectively would wider be.....even better?

my guess is most M9 rooms are wider than 18 feet. wider rooms do require that much more effort to optimize. i can see Alon wanting to show these big speakers are happy in a real world room size.

not sure you mean 'better with M9's'? or 'could i take my current set-up even higher with more work?'

i probably agree M9's, given the proper time and energy optimizing, would have a higher ceiling than my MM7's. there is a chance they would not, if only very slight. we just don't know. objectively there are likely better speaker systems than my MM7's. but could i get them to sound better? do i still have it in me to try?

as far as my set-up, could i still make it better by more work? i would have to assume yes. i only know i have achieved the sound i wanted, but at some point my expectations could be moved forward. i could see that. i've dreamed of horns, and other alternatives, in my room.....would that be sideways or forward? we can't predict the future. but with retirement immanent; big moves are not real world.

hope it happens.

Hmm, I remember the ceiling being tall and the room being plenty big to handle the speakers. They are big but there was a good distance to the ceiling. M9s are 80” tall. It can be difficult to judge size based on photographs.

 

[Lee]

The room dimensions are 20 x 32.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Hmm, I remember the ceiling being tall and the room being plenty big to handle the speakers. They are big but there was a good distance to the ceiling. M9s are 80” tall. It can be difficult to judge size based on photographs.

if you observe the 'wave' acoustical pieces above the wood diffusers in this picture, there are 4 and slightly less than 1/2 of them, and they are 4 feet long. so less than 18 feet. the diffusers do have some depth, but even visually in the picture it looks a bit tight with those monster speakers.