More Consensus That Streaming Is An Inferior Format & Not High End?

[bonzo75]

this topic is not about TAD Transparency , It is about File/Streaming vs CD .


I have compared File/Stream vs CD in many systems not only in TAD system.
For example In CEC/Weiss/Vitus/Skogrand/WilsonAlexandria or CEC/AN-DAC5/Audiopax/LivingVoice or ...

Clark Johnsen (his book is about Polarity) did not like writing Reviews , we can learn from Clark Johnsen why most judgments and reviews and ideas is not valid in Audio. Internet is full of different ideas about sound but very few ideas are Valid.

The real problem of audio reviews or any idea about any subject is in Audio is two things:
first : we have many variables (like room acoustics , speaker place, matching, impedance matching, voltage level matching, ground loops, AC quality, amplifier speaker matching, room speaker intraction) that you can not compare two audio device in equal condition.
Only Clark Johnsen and Roy gregory pointed about this problem if i am not mistaken.
For example you can not review/compare two speakers without finding best match amplifier for each of them. You also need match acoustic (room) for each speaker and speaker placement is very very critical. It means if you want compare two amplifier or two speaker then you should compare two complete different systems in two different rooms and ...
Another example : If you put your speaker in neutral zoon to have least intraction with room then after changing your amplifier you should change speaker position.
all magazine reviews and all audiophile ideas about X vs Y is in one system and this does not mean equal test condition.

second: most audio systems are not properly optimised , this problem decrease transparency and most audio judgments come from audio systems that shows difference of A vs B less than 5% . If your system shows huge difference/contrast between File/stream vs CD then it means your system is transparent enough to judge file vs CD .

I don't disagree on transparency, if I find two components sounding similar in a system I consider that experience invalid, because there is something downstream coloring that is not letting me hear the differences. And I don't want to hear only difference between components, I also want to hear them between recordings. And performers.

However, no one said digital streaming sounding as good as as vinyl => it sounds similar. You can have transparency where the two sound different yet both sound great, and both give a sense of realism equally. You just assumed in your post we were not hearing differences and equated them because of lack of experience with transparency.

Btw, at no point I am saying that files or CD will not sound even better than Qobuz, and I did not like the initial SGM, but the Taiko Extreme with Pacific and Horizon, and the LDMS with the Pacific do not leave me wanting for more at all.

On your other points, yes, you cannot review two speakers without ideal amplifier match, and I would not even compare them once in the same room, I will try to find ideal set ups for each, which means multiple auditions. Only if the speaker repeatedly fails will I say that. I also agree that the whole chain needs to be matched for analog and digital. Sometimes, you might need two different chains to optimize your analog and your digital.

And yes, you can set up a system to have the digital sound bad, or vice versa, which itself does not mean digital is bad or vinyl is bad. Rookies to analog often make the mistake of comparing the two in the same room where sometimes digital sounds better. All it meant is that the guy set up his analog poorly. Happens a lot.

 

[Tango]

I am in consensus that streaming regardless of how expensive the equipments used currently is sonically an inferior format to get closest to realism. If one wants to get closest to life like sound it is not the format to go for as of now. Is it high end? Of course it is. There is always high end in all kind of product. Rice at 20X the price of what most people eat is also high end.

I estimated about $25k which isn’t expensive (compared to your vinyl setup). As you know there is a wide range of costs.

What dac + streamer that cost $25K and dont have digital glare and hardness?

 

[Blackmorec]

Read the comments on Paul’ YouTube video. I’ve read the first 50 comments or so and many are saying, correctly, in my view, that it comes down to what file is being streamed— not the streaming process itself. The CD file and the streamed file are often not the same, so how are you supposed to compare them? Remasters are often terrible. Remasters are sometimes better.

I don’t see how Paul’s focus on data size compression makes any sense. Is he saying that the files that Qobuz says are red book or higher definition are being delivered to their subscribers in a lower definition file? That sounds like something that would be open to a class action lawsuit.

It would certainly be a good thing if the streaming services could provide the provenance of the files. Then we could have a much better understanding why one file sounds crappy and another sounds great.

But all in all, it’s pretty easy to avoid the bad stuff. Listen for the first 10 seconds. If it’s bad, move on to something that sounds good. It’s a truly marvelous smorgasbord for a music lover. Just avoid the moldy cheese.

Hi Wil,
Completely agree. The other component(s) in enjoying the smorgasbord is the actual home network. If its set up to transmit incoming data as directly, quickly and cheaply as possible, then its missing one of the most important and valuable qualities of streaming, namely the ability to clean, repair and recondition the incoming signal to get it to the point it sounds magnificent.
In my experience, the most important element in the quality of the resulting music from streaming is, VERY happily, the actual hardware owned by the audiophile. That has the
ability to transform every source of music from hi-res to 128kbps MP3 into something that‘s highly listenable and seriously engaging. I often find myself starting a listening session with 128kbps MP3 based Swiss Radio Classics and an hour later I’m still deeply engaged with the music, despite having much better full-fat streaming. With the correct set up streaming can transcend most of the technical aspects and make it almost entirely about the music. I’ve never before listened to a medium that that the ability to generate upgrade after upgrade that makes COMPLETE musical sense, as is the case with a streaming network.

 

[Blackmorec]

Good question, someone should ask Paul. Maybe we should differentiate between downloads from the net and local uploads too. IME there are significant sonic differences between them.

david

Hi David,
Yes there are definitely sonic differences but those differences are neither stable nor uniform across recordings or systems. They depend on the original master material, all the normal resolution attributes, the upload/download HW and SW used and the methods and hardware employed to stream/download/rip and replay the actual recorded material Given the huge number of variables and their sonic impact I would have a very hard time to describe concrete differences between sonic attributes of either local or remote because I can do much to improve and optimise both/either.
What i‘m saying is that sound quality from either medium is very much a variable that is under the control of the audiophile, whether they realise it or not

 

[Blackmorec]

I am in consensus that streaming regardless of how expensive the equipments used currently is sonically an inferior format to get closest to realism. If one wants to get closest to life like sound it is not the format to go for as of now. Is it high end? Of course it is. There is always high end in all kind of product. Rice at 20X the price of what most people eat is also high end.

What dac + streamer that cost $25K and dont have digital glare and hardness?

Hi Tango,
Take your $25K, spend $15K on the DAC and Streamer and the other $10K building a network that cleans and reconditions the incoming data stream and you‘ll end up with a beautiful sounding system

On the other hand, spend $50K on your DAC and Server and feed it directly with raw, consumer-grade modem/router internet feed and all my bets on the resulting sonic quality are off

 

[matthias]

What dac + streamer that cost $25K and dont have digital glare and hardness?

Maybe Taiko Extreme with the upcoming PCIe DAC card?
Looking forward to HE Munich in May.......

Matt

 

[Blackmorec]

And yes, you can set up a system to have the digital sound bad, or vice versa, which itself does not mean digital is bad or vinyl is bad. Rookies to analog often make the mistake of comparing the two in the same room where sometimes digital sounds better. All it meant is that the guy set up his analog poorly. Happens a lot.

Alternatively, it means that the analogue set-up is fine but the digital set-up is better. Exactly what I experienced. Sound quality with streaming can be, to a large extent, as good as you want to make it, exactly like other hi-fi media. While there must be a theoretical maximum for any media, the SoTA keeps on improving. I have yet to find the ultimate with vinyl or streaming, but so far with streaming I have not yet found where the law of diminishing returns kicks is. I have found improvements getting more expensive but by the same token, they are still delivering outstanding sonic value so as the costs increase, so do the improvements.

 

[bonzo75]

Alternatively, it means that the analogue set-up is fine but the digital set-up is better. Exactly what I experienced. Sound quality with streaming can be, to a large extent, as good as you want to make it, exactly like other hi-fi media. While there must be a theoretical maximum for any media, the SoTA keeps on improving. I have yet to find the ultimate with vinyl or streaming, but so far with streaming I have not yet found where the law of diminishing returns kicks is. I have found improvements getting more expensive but by the same token, they are still delivering outstanding sonic value so as the costs increase, so do the improvements.

I don't see digital being better, unless the analog is suboptimal. I see both being excellent. Beyond that there are just differences and price wanking. I do see more bad digital set ups and more good analog set ups

 

[Blackmorec]

I don't see digital being better, unless the analog is suboptimal. I see both being excellent. Beyond that there are just differences and price wanking. I do see more bad digital set ups and more good analog set ups

Price wanking? Does that involve expensive audio porn like the new Taiko audio switch and router?

Im certain that there are a lot more bad digital than bad analog set ups. Analog is about avoiding noise, digital removing noise. Typically audiophiles have a lot of experience and expertise with the former and a lot less with the latter. The belief that ‘bits are bits’ with no regard to the quality of the physical layer is very likely where digital systems fail to deliver.

 

[Amir]

it's certainly fortunate that these "facts" are given to us about "all" digital products and what we should hear in every system or it's "not so transparent".

is this also written in stone?

no reason to post about streaming any longer. it's been decreed how it goes.

Mike
I love Wadax Reference products (thay are working on New Reference Transport) and I know You hear good sound from Wadax Streaming System.
I am not against streaming , I know Streaming via Wadax is good but what I think is Stream Media (Computer playback) is not better media than CD .
CD has some problems , 24bit is better than 16bit and 44.1khz is not good for output analog filters. If CD was 24bit/88khz then It was better.
When CD introduced by Sony to high end market as "perfect sound" then it takes time More than 20 years to have good sound from CD but finally even CD playback will not beat Vinyl playback.
I just say streaming format is not the best way to have perfect sound.

 

[tima]

Take your $25K, spend $15K on the DAC and Streamer and the other $10K building a network that cleans and reconditions the incoming data stream and you‘ll end up with a beautiful sounding system

Hi - I don't know the technology of audio streaming but I am curious about "building a network that cleans and reconditions the incoming data stream". Could you pls describe in more detail what that is? I don't need specific equipment, but what takes place at what point in the data delivery.

I will also ask a question that received no answer earlier, since it seems to fall within the area of data integrity: Does streamed audio data include metadata about the stream itself such that source data and received data can be compared against one another, analogous to a checksum?

 

[dminches]

I am in consensus that streaming regardless of how expensive the equipments used currently is sonically an inferior format to get closest to realism. If one wants to get closest to life like sound it is not the format to go for as of now. Is it high end? Of course it is. There is always high end in all kind of product. Rice at 20X the price of what most people eat is also high end.

What dac + streamer that cost $25K and dont have digital glare and hardness?

Everything is a matter of degrees. I have a Lumin U2 mini, custom build LPS and Audio Mirror Tubadour III DAC which sounds great. That cost me under $10k. Does it sound as good as my Taiko Audio Extreme and Lampizator Horizon? Of course not, but I can still enjoy digital music with the lesser system.

I don't agree that my Taiko/Lampizator setup does not approach realism. I have done a number of comparisons between that and tape and/or LP for the same recording and the difference is getting smaller and smaller.

 

[wil]

Despite the inflammatory title, this thread has actually turned out to be mostly constructive and thought provoking! Congratulations WBF!

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike
I love Wadax Reference products (thay are working on New Reference Transport) and I know You hear good sound from Wadax Streaming System.
I am not against streaming , I know Streaming via Wadax is good but what I think is Stream Media (Computer playback) is not better media than CD .
CD has some problems , 24bit is better than 16bit and 44.1khz is not good for output analog filters. If CD was 24bit/88khz then It was better.
When CD introduced by Sony to high end market as "perfect sound" then it takes time More than 20 years to have good sound from CD but finally even CD playback will not beat Vinyl playback.
I just say streaming format is not the best way to have perfect sound.

Amir,

my sarcastic reaction to your post is about your points made as if they are facts. you have a right to your own opinions, but not your own facts. when posters take dismissive approaches to anything, and paint with broad brushes, without doing the comprehensive work to back it up, it causes conflict. and Audio Note UK Peter has a right to his opinions too, but i don't see him as any authority about streaming. i go into AN rooms at shows and like the sound, but mostly it's 'meh'. yet i know he makes very fine gear. so yes, he can offer his perspective. but it's just a damn opinion. that is all. citing him chapter and verse and then throwing it out as gospel does not advance the discussion. it might help to link the article you cited, i could not find it.

and now you try to link issues with the 16/44 format, and the CD, somehow to streaming. you are just confusing the issue. much of my streaming is at higher resolutions. so your point, whether right or wrong, is not really helping us to determine about streaming. it's beside the point. personally i find that CD or 16/44 files or streaming can be wonderful depending on the recording. fantastic even. but in my experience a great recording of a native file of higher resolution, whether streaming or a server file, has a higher ceiling. i do this compare every day. for hours. but not all files at any resolution are created equal. the recording itself is more significant.

no one is claiming streaming is perfect sound. or that CD beats vinyl. not sure where that is coming from.

i have done the work on streaming at various levels, now at the highest levels, verses all other formats; but all i have is my opinions.

we all have choices how we present our perspectives, but spouting opinions in all knowing dismissive tones, get's in the way of dialog.

 

[bonzo75]

I don't agree that my Taiko/Lampizator setup does not approach realism. I have done a number of comparisons between that and tape and/or LP for the same recording and the difference is getting smaller and smaller.

It is just fantastic. Decca's Mendelssohn Violin Concerto by Campoli is superbly recorded, well over 1k for the orginal. The Heifetz Mendelssohn is not well recorded on vinyl, but is a better performance. So I prefer listening to Heifetz via Lampi than to Campoli via analog, though I prefer the Campoli to many others on analog. Mahler 2 analog has better performances, while Ivan Fischer on Channel Classics, though not as great a performance, is superb in terms of grandeur of size, dynamic range, and sonic excitement. The more you can cherry pick performances and recordings, more you will grow. This is no different from if you had two carts of different sounds, you will pick recordings accordingly. You are lucky you have tape as well to do all three.

 

[bonzo75]

Amir,

i go into AN rooms at shows and like the sound, but mostly it's 'meh

Meh and overpriced, plus he copied most of the stuff.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Hi - I don't know the technology of audio streaming but I am curious about "building a network that cleans and reconditions the incoming data stream". Could you pls describe in more detail what that is? I don't need specific equipment, but what takes place at what point in the data delivery.

I will also ask a question that received no answer earlier, since it seems to fall within the area of data integrity: Does streamed audio data include metadata about the stream itself such that source data and received data can be compared against one another, analogous to a checksum?

few of us here claim to be network experts, even very serious streamers. i could briefly explain my network connection, but i really don't know so much about it. there are threads that get deep into the weeds about this, the Taiko Extreme thread has certainly addressed this in depth at various times. my network has gone with mostly with Emile's opinions.

mostly a low noise/high bandwidth connection (i think mine is 1000 Mbps) from your utility is needed. starts with high bandwidth copper ethernet from your home modem. then a high quality low noise switch (preferably with a linear power supply), then maybe fibre optic, or copper run to near your streamer where you have an even better dedicated network switch (with a better linear power supply), and then a high quality network cable to your server.

some feed their server with wifi and claim that is great, mine is solid copper ethernet. in the past i have used a fibre optic break in the copper for lower noise but the technology has advanced from that approach mostly.

my total investment is for all this up to my server is about $5k-$6k retail. most of which is my Nordost Network Switch and Nordost LPS, Nordost power cables and Sablon ethernet cable.

as far as checksum and data integrity my son is a network engineer and i leave that stuff to him. he has tested my network and says it's fine. my ears agree. my TV 4K and even 8K looks good. my wife is happy with all her stuff.

 

[Elliot G.]

Mike
I love Wadax Reference products (thay are working on New Reference Transport) and I know You hear good sound from Wadax Streaming System.
I am not against streaming , I know Streaming via Wadax is good but what I think is Stream Media (Computer playback) is not better media than CD .
CD has some problems , 24bit is better than 16bit and 44.1khz is not good for output analog filters. If CD was 24bit/88khz then It was better.
When CD introduced by Sony to high end market as "perfect sound" then it takes time More than 20 years to have good sound from CD but finally even CD playback will not beat Vinyl playback.
I just say streaming format is not the best way to have perfect sound.

Amir, What exactly is perfect sound?
I respect all the formats and for example have listened to a bunch of turntables in various system including my own and they all sound different.
The Basis Transcendance doesnt sound like a VPI or an Air Force 1 or an Airforce zero or an SAT. In fact how could one even judge as they are all using different tone arms and cartridges in different set ups. There are DOZENS I havent heard and probably never will.
Which one is prefect? How can we determine that when they are all different.
When it comes to streaming as I said before there are differences here as well.
Audio can only be looked at as a systematic event. One can only hear the entire sum of the parts and the envirionment that it exists in.
Now whether that is streaming based, CD based, or analog based all can sound really great but each one needs to be optimized for the usage it gets.
So many how have one format do not take the same steps nor invest the same time and dollars in the others and therefore do not get the result they want or expect. Even when this is done IMO there still exists differences and one format again in my opinion is not a clearcut winner.
For my listening I made my choice as I personally don't see the value of just listening to differences for the sake of making discussions or arguements and I try to listen to my music and be thrilled.

 

[rando]

I am in consensus that streaming regardless of how expensive the equipments used currently is sonically an inferior format to get closest to realism. If one wants to get closest to life like sound it is not the format to go for as of now.

A fair yet easily assessed opinion. Especially when you consider evolutionary period following the Golden Age of Analog increasingly lost focus on realism.

Overwhelming majority of music recorded to digital has purposely avoided any portrayals of realism. With it came the change in high end reproduction away from (particularly speakers) a system designed to play one type of music. I, like yourself and ddk, recognize certain frequencies of logic being violated. Just as they repeatedly were by those manufacturing and selling equipment during the long term development of analog.

There is a low rate of return on selling equipment that works how it should while everyone else is going about it the wrong way. Musical ideas work much the same way. Fame and fortune never arrive for many decades ahead in their work. Their name never gets attached even if someone does manage to get part of the way there before packaging it for ready sale a number of years later.

Edit: The above refers to invention. 10K ways that don't work before the one that does is discovered. It is not a wholesale condescension of the high end. Sufficient numbers of moneyed interest looking to buy realistic digital does not appear to exist today.

Is it high end? Of course it is. There is always high end in all kind of product. Rice at 20X the price of what most people eat is also high end.

 

[rando]

I will also ask a question that received no answer earlier, since it seems to fall within the area of data integrity: Does streamed audio data include metadata about the stream itself such that source data and received data can be compared against one another, analogous to a checksum?

This was at least given the most likely amount of reply to appear.

Proprietary solutions any of the streaming providers implement are not openly broadcast or easily specified. To the best of my knowledge they do all recognize the abilities of end user equipment. They do recognize the existence of a conflict among numerous checks that decide how best to provide service. There is a sufficient amount of network activity uploaded to their servers to believe data corruption or malice are recognized through some manner of check against source material. They detect and attempt to rectify the problem within a very short time period of any anomaly in playback or download occurring. So yes, the interior of your question was verified.

I'd suggest you make specific demands on each streaming service through their customer service or representatives at audio shows to attain a full and comprehensive official statement.